STD - The War Without, The War Within

[Karha of Honor]

It's obvious that Chuck does not like the spores, but Discovery is not all about them. It's just one element and we most probably won't see them much again since Starfleet can't use the spore drive ethically. Personally I can't say from his reviews if he has "contempt" for the show or if he appreciates it despite its flaws. Flaws that every ST series showed in their first season.

ANd while its true that every Trek show has had a weaker first season while finding their voice, those flaws have usually been "the show is bad because the people making it don't know what they're doing" and not "the show is actively and intentionally attacking its audience because it wants to not be Trek at all and wants to be GoT."

I think this is a very subjective critic. "Actively and intentionally attacking its audience because it wants not to be Trek, etc." Why make a show in the first place if all you want is antagonizing your audience? I don't buy it at all. On my part, I tried to remain open-minded about the show. Does it feel like TNG or DS9? Of course not. Rick Berman is not at the helm anymore, so it could not feel the same. Just like Berman's Trek did not feel like Roddenberry's Trek of TOS.

Overall, I enjoyed this first season, despite all of its flaws. I believe it's still a case of "finding their voice." The second season will tell us if the show can become great. TNG's first season was, in my opinion, way worse than DSC's, and it took them three seasons to make the show memorable.

It's 2019, you don't have 3 seasons to figure it out.

Yep, you don't. Not without exceptional circumstances anyway.

And as for the idea that every Star Trek has a crap first season and thus STD having one is somehow justified, I really hate that defence as that means that STD did not make any effort to learn from the previous mistakes of the other shows. This has happened six times now over 53 years. How many more ''original'' mistakes can there be?

Not to cape for the Trek EU but they should just have picked an existing novel series that is good and they could execute on a budget if they are this incompetent.

[Yukaphile]

Why are they involving the Mirror Universe in the 2250s? This just takes away that special pioneering moment when it's Kirk who discovered it. Instead, nooooo. It's just a Starfleet cover-up. Same with expunging Michael's record. And the characters are such complete assholes, how are we supposed to emphasize with them? Not only that, but they kill off the first actively gay couple in Trek. How could no one see this coming? SF Debris called it during his review of "The Fight" long before it happened.

[Yukaphile]

Even Enterprise knew how to handle the Mirror Universe better.

[clearspira]

Why are they involving the Mirror Universe in the 2250s? This just takes away that special pioneering moment when it's Kirk who discovered it. Instead, nooooo. It's just a Starfleet cover-up. Same with expunging Michael's record. And the characters are such complete assholes, how are we supposed to emphasize with them? Not only that, but they kill off the first actively gay couple in Trek. How could no one see this coming? SF Debris called it during his review of "The Fight" long before it happened.

1) Chuck DID NOT call that they would be killed off, he said that Star Trek's first gay couple would be handled just as terribly as Star Trek's first Native American character was.

2) I didn't agree that killing a gay couple is somehow more worthy of note than killing a straight couple last time we had this conversation and I don't now. It seems to me that SOME want selective equality. They want the diverse couples but cannot stand to see them face the same trials, hardship and fate as traditional ones. Kirk lost a girlfriend, Scotty lost a girlfriend, Worf lost a wife, T'Pol lost a boyfriend. Death happens to all.

[Yukaphile]

I believe the issue is that they died in the first season. Worf and Dax had two years together, and had known each other three or four years before they she died.

[SuccubusYuri]

Why are they involving the Mirror Universe in the 2250s? This just takes away that special pioneering moment when it's Kirk who discovered it. Instead, nooooo. It's just a Starfleet cover-up. Same with expunging Michael's record. And the characters are such complete assholes, how are we supposed to emphasize with them? Not only that, but they kill off the first actively gay couple in Trek. How could no one see this coming? SF Debris called it during his review of "The Fight" long before it happened.

1) Chuck DID NOT call that they would be killed off, he said that Star Trek's first gay couple would be handled just as terribly as Star Trek's first Native American character was.

2) I didn't agree that killing a gay couple is somehow more worthy of note than killing a straight couple last time we had this conversation and I don't now. It seems to me that SOME want selective equality. They want the diverse couples but cannot stand to see them face the same trials, hardship and fate as traditional ones. Kirk lost a girlfriend, Scotty lost a girlfriend, Worf lost a wife, T'Pol lost a boyfriend. Death happens to all.

It's actually more problematic because this exists: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... ryYourGays

So it's the same backwards shit, different flavor. And they couldn't even go an entire season, which was short, before they pulled it out.

[BunBun299]

So, not having read any of this discussion....

You're telling me that they know Ash is really Voq, a KINO altered to look human, and there for the expressed purpose of killing them and stealing Discovery, and they don't just throw him back in the brig once his mental problems are sorted out? I'd expect more common sense out of Janeway or Archer. Why would you ever expect the Ash persona to be dominant here? Unless you had a telepath read his mind to determine that was indeed the case, he should never be allowed out of the brig, save to be transferred to a penal colony. And I don't recall the review mentioning Sarek mind melding with him.

And even if you could be 100% certain that the Ash persona was in control, are we forgetting the attempted murder of Michael just a few days prior? Unless that somehow earned him a pardon.....

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Why are they involving the Mirror Universe in the 2250s? This just takes away that special pioneering moment when it's Kirk who discovered it. Instead, nooooo. It's just a Starfleet cover-up. Same with expunging Michael's record. And the characters are such complete assholes, how are we supposed to emphasize with them? Not only that, but they kill off the first actively gay couple in Trek. How could no one see this coming? SF Debris called it during his review of "The Fight" long before it happened.

1) Chuck DID NOT call that they would be killed off, he said that Star Trek's first gay couple would be handled just as terribly as Star Trek's first Native American character was.

2) I didn't agree that killing a gay couple is somehow more worthy of note than killing a straight couple last time we had this conversation and I don't now. It seems to me that SOME want selective equality. They want the diverse couples but cannot stand to see them face the same trials, hardship and fate as traditional ones. Kirk lost a girlfriend, Scotty lost a girlfriend, Worf lost a wife, T'Pol lost a boyfriend. Death happens to all.

It's actually more problematic because this exists: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... ryYourGays

So it's the same backwards shit, different flavor. And they couldn't even go an entire season, which was short, before they pulled it out.

Yes, but what of the writers preemptively acknowledging the trope and how they already planned on dealing with it (as far as what it says in that link)?

[SuccubusYuri]

Yes, but what of the writers preemptively acknowledging the trope and how they already planned on dealing with it (as far as what it says in that link)?

I mean, if someone wants to claim that Discovery is a methodically planned out series with a secretly genius super-arc, and it wasn't employed because it was lazy drama, go right ahead, be my guest.

But I feel like many people here, particularly Spira, will be quite slow to make that argument xD

[Worffan101]

Yes, but what of the writers preemptively acknowledging the trope and how they already planned on dealing with it (as far as what it says in that link)?

I mean, if someone wants to claim that Discovery is a methodically planned out series with a secretly genius super-arc, and it wasn't employed because it was lazy drama, go right ahead, be my guest.

But I feel like many people here, particularly Spira, will be quite slow to make that argument xD

I think that anybody who genuinely believes that they took advantage of the streaming format and plotted and filmed all of this shit beforehand is talking out of their ass.

The writers clearly had no fucking clue what they were doing at any point.