STD - The War Without, The War Within

[Robovski]

Yeah, this isn't a new aspect to Trek. In fact it's quite common for science fiction to show torture.

[Makeshift Python]

It's obvious that Chuck does not like the spores, but Discovery is not all about them. It's just one element and we most probably won't see them much again since Starfleet can't use the spore drive ethically. Personally I can't say from his reviews if he has "contempt" for the show or if he appreciates it despite its flaws. Flaws that every ST series showed in their first season.

ANd while its true that every Trek show has had a weaker first season while finding their voice, those flaws have usually been "the show is bad because the people making it don't know what they're doing" and not "the show is actively and intentionally attacking its audience because it wants to not be Trek at all and wants to be GoT."

I think this is a very subjective critic. "Actively and intentionally attacking its audience because it wants not to be Trek, etc." Why make a show in the first place if all you want is antagonizing your audience? I don't buy it at all. On my part, I tried to remain open-minded about the show. Does it feel like TNG or DS9? Of course not. Rick Berman is not at the helm anymore, so it could not feel the same. Just like Berman's Trek did not feel like Roddenberry's Trek of TOS.

Overall, I enjoyed this first season, despite all of its flaws. I believe it's still a case of "finding their voice." The second season will tell us if the show can become great. TNG's first season was, in my opinion, way worse than DSC's, and it took them three seasons to make the show memorable.

There's nothing more insufferable than an empty criticism like "made by people who hate Star Trek", except maybe TNG's first season. I'd say it took less than three seasons for TNG to become memorable, as I'd point to "Measure of a Man" as the moment the show found its own voice, and only got better with the following season learning from what made an episode like that an instant classic.

I don't think we should cut DISCOVERY slack just because other first seasons were subpar, but I do think it's rather unfair to not let this show get a shot a growing the beard. Demanding this show be cancelled, we'd be no different than those that demanded TNG get cancelled just because "it's not my Star Trek". I see two ways it can go. It heavily improves with its second season and stays consistent to grant it more years to come. The other is how ENTERPRISE turned out, getting good when it's way too late for it to fully recover, which was a shame.

[Yukaphile]

I want it canceled because they brought in the Mirror Universe. That really takes something special away from Kirk's pioneering moment. There's also a difference. TNG was a sequel, not a prequel. I want a tight continuity in my Trek.

[Karha of Honor]

I want it canceled because they brought in the Mirror Universe. That really takes something special away from Kirk's pioneering moment. There's also a difference. TNG was a sequel, not a prequel. I want a tight continuity in my Trek.

The Mirror Universe was always stupid.

[FlynnTaggart]

I don't think we should cut DISCOVERY slack just because other first seasons were subpar, but I do think it's rather unfair to not let this show get a shot a growing the beard. Demanding this show be cancelled, we'd be no different than those that demanded TNG get cancelled just because "it's not my Star Trek". I see two ways it can go. It heavily improves with its second season and stays consistent to grant it more years to come. The other is how ENTERPRISE turned out, getting good when it's way too late for it to fully recover, which was a shame.

I get what you are saying and partially agree but partially not. For some shows you want to give them a chance to grow, to evolve into something good but usually because there is a hook. You aren't totally invested yet but are willing to give it a chance. Shows like TNG and Stargate SG1 didn't have the best first seasons but still had enough to get audiences wanting more. Nobody would have wanted a season 2 of TNG if not for episodes like The Battle and Datalore or some of the well remembered s1 SG episodes. If TNG or SG1 had just been Code of Honor and Emancipation I don't anyone would have been clamoring for more.

Discoballs unfortunately I don't think really had that hook for some, didn't sink its claws into some viewers like a housecat letting you know its time to stopping petting her. They don't owe the show anything, to keep watching despite not liking it just on the off chance it might get better I disagree with.

Its a bit like Stargate Universe, another dark and edgier drama driven sequel series, where it too had trouble capturing its audience. The first season was meandering garbage that never really hit any high notes at all atleast for some viewers. It got a second season that some argue was a marked improvement but by then the damage had been done, the show had bleed viewers like my arms during my whiny emo teenage years.

In that instance there was parts of the community who accused other fans of not giving the show its fair shot, acted like they were outright attempting to sabotage the show because they weren't watching, I think even some of the showrunners said fans were sabotaging the show. Some people were acting like the show was owed viewership despite some not feeling they earned it.

I think for some Discovery might be in a similar leaky boat, just not earning their eyeballs. And I don't think its the fault of the viewers, any sort of sabotage campaign, or they are wrong for not wanting to watch, just the show for some people ain't great so they ain't watching. And and it doesn't deserve to be watched just because it exists. Atleast thats my opinion.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't think we should cut DISCOVERY slack just because other first seasons were subpar, but I do think it's rather unfair to not let this show get a shot a growing the beard. Demanding this show be cancelled, we'd be no different than those that demanded TNG get cancelled just because "it's not my Star Trek". I see two ways it can go. It heavily improves with its second season and stays consistent to grant it more years to come. The other is how ENTERPRISE turned out, getting good when it's way too late for it to fully recover, which was a shame.

I get what you are saying and partially agree but partially not. For some shows you want to give them a chance to grow, to evolve into something good but usually because there is a hook. You aren't totally invested yet but are willing to give it a chance. Shows like TNG and Stargate SG1 didn't have the best first seasons but still had enough to get audiences wanting more. Nobody would have wanted a season 2 of TNG if not for episodes like The Battle and Datalore or some of the well remembered s1 SG episodes. If TNG or SG1 had just been Code of Honor and Emancipation I don't anyone would have been clamoring for more.

Discoballs unfortunately I don't think really had that hook for some, didn't sink its claws into some viewers like a housecat letting you know its time to stopping petting her. They don't owe the show anything, to keep watching despite not liking it just on the off chance it might get better I disagree with.

Its a bit like Stargate Universe, another dark and edgier drama driven sequel series, where it too had trouble capturing its audience. The first season was meandering garbage that never really hit any high notes at all atleast for some viewers. It got a second season that some argue was a marked improvement but by then the damage had been done, the show had bleed viewers like my arms during my whiny emo teenage years.

In that instance there was parts of the community who accused other fans of not giving the show its fair shot, acted like they were outright attempting to sabotage the show because they weren't watching, I think even some of the showrunners said fans were sabotaging the show. Some people were acting like the show was owed viewership despite some not feeling they earned it.

I think for some Discovery might be in a similar leaky boat, just not earning their eyeballs. And I don't think its the fault of the viewers, any sort of sabotage campaign, or they are wrong for not wanting to watch, just the show for some people ain't great so they ain't watching. And and it doesn't deserve to be watched just because it exists. Atleast thats my opinion.

Don't you think it's more practical to just yell at the screen when the show is on, have the producers cancel it, then try to take another wild blind guess as to what the fandom wants?

[FlynnTaggart]

Don't you think it's more practical to just yell at the screen when the show is on, have the producers cancel it, then try to take another wild blind guess as to what the fandom wants?

Practical? No, though it might be more fun. The only real flaw is actually watching the show to yell at it.

And its not really a wild guess. Fan response at best has been highly mixed, some evidence points to viewership numbers not being great such as CBS All Access not doing gangbusters, Rotten Tomatoes has Enterprise season 1 with a higher audience score, and on fan sites the response to Discovery has not been super positive.

You needn't have a crystal ball or to guess to see that at the very least Discovery is not winning over some core fans and thats being highly charitable towards the show. The producers don't need to be geniuses to figure out what is not working with the show, didn't need to be geniuses to figure out that some of the points of contention for the show were things that people were going to whine about even if the show was good, should have known writing terrible plots and unlikable characters is not going to endear people to your show well before pen was put to computer screen. Its not like all the mistakes from "dark and edgier" sequel to continuity snarls hasn't been done before and shown to be things that can hurt a show.

[Linkara]

While I've been one of the defenders of Discovery, I will say that making Georgiou the Captain is just... dumb and nonsensical.

Classifying the Mirror Universe to the rest of Starfleet made sense with the explanation they gave. But Discovery was in the Mirror Universe. Everyone onboard Discovery knows what the Mirror Universe is. Who the hell are they trying to fool with this deception? It's just utterly pointless.

I echo the sentiment that the show feels a lot like Stargate Universe - trying to do something different, but sometimes that difference is... not needed or wanted, or at least goes too far in places. A lot of this can be traced back to Battlestar Galactica, IMHO - that super-gritty style seems to influence A LOT of sci-fi even now.

[RobbyB1982]

Also the show wanted some of that sweet Game of Thrones torture porn that Trek is so well known for.

Assuming you are being sarcastic (and considering the tone of literally every DISC discussion that seems to happen on this website it seems like a safe assumption) you do realize that literally every Star Trek series has had one or more episodes that depicted torture, right?

I said "Game of Thrones style torture porn."

That's where they're getting off on being stomach churning and gross for the sake of shock values.

There's a difference between showing the characters in pain, and showing graphic on screen gore. A guy yelling loudly from energy, or pretending to be whipped, or being messed with psychologically, or being turned into a Borg off camera, is not the same thing as a a guy having his skin peeled to reveal the bloody muscle and bone underneath, on camera, or having his heart removed and disected, or raped by a fully naked on camera Klingon.

In game of Thrones, where I read the books long before show came out, there is a difference between being told "The character choked to death" and then actually seeing them turn blue with their eyes and veins bulging out. Its completely different.

Torture is story. Torture porn is being sick for writing it, filming it and then making people watch it.... especially in a franchise that has traditionally been family friendly.

[Yukaphile]

One difference between STD and TNG is 1990s syndication. They had longer episodes and came closer together in between seasons.