Yukaphile wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:43 am
I think it's just scandalous Chuck has blasted Voyager or Enterprise worse than STD. I hope he ends by commenting it's not Star Trek, and didn't live up to its potential, because it's worse than Voyager or Enterprise.
Yeah I don't feel like it's Star Trek. Not as far as substance but in approach. As far as substance, I take everything in Discovery at face value as authentic Trek just based on canonical grounds in spite of how unfamiliar and detached I am. Forget TOS era, these Klingons are retconning TNG to Voyager Klingon aesthetic.
Anyways I have a hard time judging it as a Trek saga as opposed to just the 13 episode season arc that has become a new standard. If that was done better then I'd probably have more to say about it.
I'd say Rey and Michael both have Sue-ish traits without quite being full-on Sues (but then, few characters are).
Both have their flaws and failures sure, but the problem is that so much of their characters feel forced and so much of their successes and arcs don't feel organic.
Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:07 pm
Okay, she isn't a full-on Mary Sure I'll grant you, but she has Sue-is traits and being the hitherto unknown foster sister of Spock is the most glaring.
She is hyper-intelligent by human standards and although she stages a mutiny and gets arrested for it, she was technically in the right about how to handle Klingons and things might have been avoided if the Captain had listened to her (ambiguous about whether or not we are supposed to side with Michael here for her mutiny). At first everyone hates her but gradually they grow to like and respect her and admit that she should never have been kicked out of Starfleet in the first place, and she ends up ending the Federation-Klingon War pretty much singly handily, by finding a peaceful solution when the Starfleet admiralty itself resorted to genocide (that she arguably started but to be fair, the Klingons wanted it).
And if that isn't enough...I'll take the cowards way and point out that it was Cryptic Mirror who called her a Sue and I was just bouncing off of her. <_<
Standard main series Captian stuff. It's okay, let's hope they won't Sue jump the shark in season 2.
I think it goes a bit beyond what happens to other Trek Captains.
Mostly I think what defines a Sue is how they are balanced out by other characters to be honest. Since the supporting cast in this show was weak / underdeveloped compared with the other Trek crews, and since she has been given so much screen time and has an improbable backstory (and not just the Sarek / Spock thing), it's more overt and bothersome with her.
Last edited by Jonathan101 on Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:07 pm
Okay, she isn't a full-on Mary Sure I'll grant you, but she has Sue-is traits and being the hitherto unknown foster sister of Spock is the most glaring.
She is hyper-intelligent by human standards and although she stages a mutiny and gets arrested for it, she was technically in the right about how to handle Klingons and things might have been avoided if the Captain had listened to her (ambiguous about whether or not we are supposed to side with Michael here for her mutiny). At first everyone hates her but gradually they grow to like and respect her and admit that she should never have been kicked out of Starfleet in the first place, and she ends up ending the Federation-Klingon War pretty much singly handily, by finding a peaceful solution when the Starfleet admiralty itself resorted to genocide (that she arguably started but to be fair, the Klingons wanted it).
And if that isn't enough...I'll take the cowards way and point out that it was Cryptic Mirror who called her a Sue and I was just bouncing off of her. <_<
Yeah, but I wouldn't have bothered playing their game and fighting them over it. People that want to fight over the definition of a Mary Sue character are not interested in having it explained to them, they just want to fight, nitpick, and generally get upset over it. Mary Suedom is a lot like porn; it is hard to pin down exact definitions, but boy do you always know it when you see it. Also, both are really annoying when you are just looking for a good genfic to read.
I will say this one thing though. Rey from Star Wars is NOT a Mary Sue. She is not that great a character, in TLJ anyway-TFA was fine, but her faults are not Sueish.
Right. There is no definition. It's based on a single fanfic and is more suited to describe more fanfic writing convention and not actual character evaluation. Star Trek Discovery and Star Wars don't feel like fanfictions to me. These characters are given real trials, and I don't feel the whole thing trips say if you have a contrivance that carries the protagonist through to the next stage of the plot.
Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:33 pm
I think it goes a bit beyond what happens to other Trek Captains.
Mostly I think what defines a Sue is how they are balanced out by other characters to be honest. Since the supporting cast in this show was weak / underdeveloped compared with the other Trek crews, and since she has been given so much screen time and has an improbable backstory (and not just the Sarek / Spock thing), it's more overt and bothersome with her.
We have Captain that fools her, Saru who is pretty much her equal or close to being that and both M Yeoh characters are at least her equal.
His mate is also her equal not some confidence lacking low testosterone pussy who works in the lab and wants to drink her bathwater.
Tyler can get laid if it's still legal in San Fransisco.
We have Tyler who has his own arc, Stametz also and the Killy miniarc. I think we are doing fine in that regard.
Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:07 pm
Okay, she isn't a full-on Mary Sure I'll grant you, but she has Sue-is traits and being the hitherto unknown foster sister of Spock is the most glaring.
She is hyper-intelligent by human standards and although she stages a mutiny and gets arrested for it, she was technically in the right about how to handle Klingons and things might have been avoided if the Captain had listened to her (ambiguous about whether or not we are supposed to side with Michael here for her mutiny). At first everyone hates her but gradually they grow to like and respect her and admit that she should never have been kicked out of Starfleet in the first place, and she ends up ending the Federation-Klingon War pretty much singly handily, by finding a peaceful solution when the Starfleet admiralty itself resorted to genocide (that she arguably started but to be fair, the Klingons wanted it).
And if that isn't enough...I'll take the cowards way and point out that it was Cryptic Mirror who called her a Sue and I was just bouncing off of her. <_<
Yeah, but I wouldn't have bothered playing their game and fighting them over it. People that want to fight over the definition of a Mary Sue character are not interested in having it explained to them, they just want to fight, nitpick, and generally get upset over it. Mary Suedom is a lot like porn; it is hard to pin down exact definitions, but boy do you always know it when you see it. Also, both are really annoying when you are just looking for a good genfic to read.
I will say this one thing though. Rey from Star Wars is NOT a Mary Sue. She is not that great a character, in TLJ anyway-TFA was fine, but her faults are not Sueish.
Right. There is no definition. It's based on a single fanfic and is more suited to describe more fanfic writing convention and not actual character evaluation. Star Trek Discovery and Star Wars don't feel like fanfictions to me. These characters are given real trials, and I don't feel the whole thing trips say if you have a contrivance that carries the protagonist through to the next stage of the plot.
Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:07 pm
Okay, she isn't a full-on Mary Sure I'll grant you, but she has Sue-is traits and being the hitherto unknown foster sister of Spock is the most glaring.
She is hyper-intelligent by human standards and although she stages a mutiny and gets arrested for it, she was technically in the right about how to handle Klingons and things might have been avoided if the Captain had listened to her (ambiguous about whether or not we are supposed to side with Michael here for her mutiny). At first everyone hates her but gradually they grow to like and respect her and admit that she should never have been kicked out of Starfleet in the first place, and she ends up ending the Federation-Klingon War pretty much singly handily, by finding a peaceful solution when the Starfleet admiralty itself resorted to genocide (that she arguably started but to be fair, the Klingons wanted it).
And if that isn't enough...I'll take the cowards way and point out that it was Cryptic Mirror who called her a Sue and I was just bouncing off of her. <_<
Yeah, but I wouldn't have bothered playing their game and fighting them over it. People that want to fight over the definition of a Mary Sue character are not interested in having it explained to them, they just want to fight, nitpick, and generally get upset over it. Mary Suedom is a lot like porn; it is hard to pin down exact definitions, but boy do you always know it when you see it. Also, both are really annoying when you are just looking for a good genfic to read.
I will say this one thing though. Rey from Star Wars is NOT a Mary Sue. She is not that great a character, in TLJ anyway-TFA was fine, but her faults are not Sueish.
Right. There is no definition. It's based on a single fanfic and is more suited to describe more fanfic writing convention and not actual character evaluation. Star Trek Discovery and Star Wars don't feel like fanfictions to me. These characters are given real trials, and I don't feel the whole thing trips say if you have a contrivance that carries the protagonist through to the next stage of the plot.
TFA...
That feels more like general Disney fantasy conventions and not an exhibition of overly symbolic sentiments.
Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:07 pm
Okay, she isn't a full-on Mary Sure I'll grant you, but she has Sue-is traits and being the hitherto unknown foster sister of Spock is the most glaring.
She is hyper-intelligent by human standards and although she stages a mutiny and gets arrested for it, she was technically in the right about how to handle Klingons and things might have been avoided if the Captain had listened to her (ambiguous about whether or not we are supposed to side with Michael here for her mutiny). At first everyone hates her but gradually they grow to like and respect her and admit that she should never have been kicked out of Starfleet in the first place, and she ends up ending the Federation-Klingon War pretty much singly handily, by finding a peaceful solution when the Starfleet admiralty itself resorted to genocide (that she arguably started but to be fair, the Klingons wanted it).
And if that isn't enough...I'll take the cowards way and point out that it was Cryptic Mirror who called her a Sue and I was just bouncing off of her. <_<
Yeah, but I wouldn't have bothered playing their game and fighting them over it. People that want to fight over the definition of a Mary Sue character are not interested in having it explained to them, they just want to fight, nitpick, and generally get upset over it. Mary Suedom is a lot like porn; it is hard to pin down exact definitions, but boy do you always know it when you see it. Also, both are really annoying when you are just looking for a good genfic to read.
I will say this one thing though. Rey from Star Wars is NOT a Mary Sue. She is not that great a character, in TLJ anyway-TFA was fine, but her faults are not Sueish.
Right. There is no definition. It's based on a single fanfic and is more suited to describe more fanfic writing convention and not actual character evaluation. Star Trek Discovery and Star Wars don't feel like fanfictions to me. These characters are given real trials, and I don't feel the whole thing trips say if you have a contrivance that carries the protagonist through to the next stage of the plot.
TFA...
That feels more like general Disney fantasy conventions and not overly symbolic portrayal with a little bit of storytelling sprinkled on top.
They had no problem being respectful much more to Marvel which when it started was a way smaller brand.
Jonathan101 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:07 pm
Okay, she isn't a full-on Mary Sure I'll grant you, but she has Sue-is traits and being the hitherto unknown foster sister of Spock is the most glaring.
She is hyper-intelligent by human standards and although she stages a mutiny and gets arrested for it, she was technically in the right about how to handle Klingons and things might have been avoided if the Captain had listened to her (ambiguous about whether or not we are supposed to side with Michael here for her mutiny). At first everyone hates her but gradually they grow to like and respect her and admit that she should never have been kicked out of Starfleet in the first place, and she ends up ending the Federation-Klingon War pretty much singly handily, by finding a peaceful solution when the Starfleet admiralty itself resorted to genocide (that she arguably started but to be fair, the Klingons wanted it).
And if that isn't enough...I'll take the cowards way and point out that it was Cryptic Mirror who called her a Sue and I was just bouncing off of her. <_<
Yeah, but I wouldn't have bothered playing their game and fighting them over it. People that want to fight over the definition of a Mary Sue character are not interested in having it explained to them, they just want to fight, nitpick, and generally get upset over it. Mary Suedom is a lot like porn; it is hard to pin down exact definitions, but boy do you always know it when you see it. Also, both are really annoying when you are just looking for a good genfic to read.
I will say this one thing though. Rey from Star Wars is NOT a Mary Sue. She is not that great a character, in TLJ anyway-TFA was fine, but her faults are not Sueish.
Right. There is no definition. It's based on a single fanfic and is more suited to describe more fanfic writing convention and not actual character evaluation. Star Trek Discovery and Star Wars don't feel like fanfictions to me. These characters are given real trials, and I don't feel the whole thing trips say if you have a contrivance that carries the protagonist through to the next stage of the plot.
TFA...
That feels more like general Disney fantasy conventions and not overly symbolic portrayal with a little bit of storytelling sprinkled on top.
They had no problem being respectful much more to Marvel which when it started was a way smaller brand.
Yeah Paramount has its own flair. Though probably not the best example considering recent events concerning Star Trek films.
Whatever people were saying about MCU being too formulaic and hoaky with the jokes can be chalked up to Disney convention. I mean probably. It's like pointing to a life preserver jacket at someone stranded out in the middle of the ocean and criticizing it for being orange.
I mean you could probably call Orville as fanficy in the same vein as The Force Awakens. But it's clear that the symbolic aspects are on purpose for specific effect.
