Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[TrueMetis]

Who said every vision of the future is a must be? What I remember of Yoda's advice relied on the fact that they aren't. That Anakin was putting way to much stock into something that might never occur.

Also in the EU, before and after Disney, there are tons on non-jedi force users out there. Most however never get training and therefore never even know they are force sensitive. People like Anakin, Luke, and Rey who can use the force with little to no training are a very rare exception.

Finally while I don't agree with the age limit, just taking them in young doesn't even slightly suggest indoctrination. Nor is all indoctrination necessarily a bad thing. We don't see enough of young Jedi's education to really make an informed judgement, but what little we do see doesn't suggest anything particularly bad.

[Nealithi]

Who said every vision of the future is a must be? What I remember of Yoda's advice relied on the fact that they aren't. That Anakin was putting way to much stock into something that might never occur.

Also in the EU, before and after Disney, there are tons on non-jedi force users out there. Most however never get training and therefore never even know they are force sensitive. People like Anakin, Luke, and Rey who can use the force with little to no training are a very rare exception.

Finally while I don't agree with the age limit, just taking them in young doesn't even slightly suggest indoctrination. Nor is all indoctrination necessarily a bad thing. We don't see enough of young Jedi's education to really make an informed judgement, but what little we do see doesn't suggest anything particularly bad.

From Yoda acting that Anakin seeing someone die means he therefore needs to let go and accept they will die. Hence going against the always in motion is the future advice.

In the never know category are you including children like the one that summoned a broom to his hand?
And I might accept that not all indoctrination is automatically bad. What evidence shows that it is not why they are specifically choosing to bring them in so young. Again nine being 'too old'.

[kingofmadcows]

The Star Wars franchise just breaks down if you analyze it too deeply. It's like how comic book worlds don't make sense if you start asking why superheroes don't cure all diseases and solve all the world's problems.

Star Wars would face similar problems to Dune and Warhammer 40K. Prescience can be as much of a curse as it is a gift. Being able to see possible futures and trying to avoid all bad outcomes is a pathway to madness. People develop anxiety disorders, phobias, OCD, etc. thinking about bad things that could happen. What kind of mental stresses are put on people who have visions of the future where bad things happen?

If you want Star Wars to deal with all the potential implications of the Force, you'll take a lot of the fun out of the franchise. You'll probably have Force users throughout the galaxy driven insane by visions of the future. You'll have kids who inadvertently hurt people with their Force powers. The Jedi would be more like the Inquisition from 40K. They'd have to enforce strict discipline on Force users to prevent them from becoming threats to galactic stability.

[Nealithi]

The Star Wars franchise just breaks down if you analyze it too deeply. It's like how comic book worlds don't make sense if you start asking why superheroes don't cure all diseases and solve all the world's problems.

Well that curtails me weighing in on the Batman thread.

Star Wars would face similar problems to Dune and Warhammer 40K. Prescience can be as much of a curse as it is a gift. Being able to see possible futures and trying to avoid all bad outcomes is a pathway to madness. People develop anxiety disorders, phobias, OCD, etc. thinking about bad things that could happen. What kind of mental stresses are put on people who have visions of the future where bad things happen?

Hmm. Actually that is an interesting idea to explore.

If you want Star Wars to deal with all the potential implications of the Force, you'll take a lot of the fun out of the franchise. You'll probably have Force users throughout the galaxy driven insane by visions of the future. You'll have kids who inadvertently hurt people with their Force powers. The Jedi would be more like the Inquisition from 40K. They'd have to enforce strict discipline on Force users to prevent them from becoming threats to galactic stability.

I think that is what we were saying they were doing.

[TrueMetis]

Who said every vision of the future is a must be? What I remember of Yoda's advice relied on the fact that they aren't. That Anakin was putting way to much stock into something that might never occur.

Also in the EU, before and after Disney, there are tons on non-jedi force users out there. Most however never get training and therefore never even know they are force sensitive. People like Anakin, Luke, and Rey who can use the force with little to no training are a very rare exception.

Finally while I don't agree with the age limit, just taking them in young doesn't even slightly suggest indoctrination. Nor is all indoctrination necessarily a bad thing. We don't see enough of young Jedi's education to really make an informed judgement, but what little we do see doesn't suggest anything particularly bad.

From Yoda acting that Anakin seeing someone die means he therefore needs to let go and accept they will die. Hence going against the always in motion is the future advice.

Okay so I watched the scene again for context, and it plays out basically as I remember. Anakin vaguely tells Yoda about a vision he had were someone close to him suffers and dies. Yoda counsels that he needs to be careful when sensing the future and that the fear of loss is a path to the darkside. Implicitly to me suggesting that Yoda thinks that he might not be seeing them clearly. Anakin says he won't allow the vision to happen, Yoda doesn't say visions always happen, just that death is a natural part of life, that the dead shouldn't be mourned because they are one with the force (though obviously we see that people's death still has a very negative impact on Yoda) and that attachment can lead to jealousy which is the shadow of Greed. He further says that Anakin should train himself to let go. Given at this point Yoda has been given little context about the circumstances of the vision, this seems to be reasonable advice. Since with what little he gets I'd bet he's assuming Anakin saw Obi-wan die on deployment or something similar.

I will say though this does benefit the story, since it's easy to see how Anakin wouldn't take the advice well since. He, like you, seems to take it as let go and accept they will die.

I took it as, don't let your emotions cloud your judgement as it might mean you're not seeing clearly, but you must be ready if the worst happens because in the end no one can stop death.

In the never know category are you including children like the one that summoned a broom to his hand?

I'm not familiar with who you're talking about, but I'm talking about people who never even realize they have special abilities. Generally, the implication was outside of some pretty minor stuff that only the highly gifted could do (IE Anakin's heightened reflexes when he was a kid) was that in order to use the force required training, especially when it came to things like moving stuff. So you'd have a lot of kid (millions) who never realized they could use the force.

And I might accept that not all indoctrination is automatically bad. What evidence shows that it is not why they are specifically choosing to bring them in so young. Again nine being 'too old'.

I don't have any real evidence it's not bad, but without evidence that it is I'm not going to assume negative connotations. I will only say, that the worst of the fallen Jedi, the one that really did damage, was the one Jedi who hadn't been through the Jedi education system, and the other ones that fell are ones that had been away for the Jedi for long periods of time, or dismissed the Jedi way out of arrogant presumption of what they were owed.

[Nealithi]

I don't have any real evidence it's not bad, but without evidence that it is I'm not going to assume negative connotations. I will only say, that the worst of the fallen Jedi, the one that really did damage, was the one Jedi who hadn't been through the Jedi education system, and the other ones that fell are ones that had been away for the Jedi for long periods of time, or dismissed the Jedi way out of arrogant presumption of what they were owed.

Getting thick on quotes so gonna try and reply and thin it down a hair.
First part, alright I can concede that from another point of view and lack of audience knowledge you can get a different take away from the counselling scene. Though I think Yoda could have been a little more empathic there.

Second is a scene from the Last Jedi near the end. The boy that helped release the racing animals and had the resistance logo. He reached his hand out and a broom jumped to his hand. He is too young to be one of Luke's apprentices so we need assume he is not a jedi trained. Though obviously attuned to the force.

Hmm. I am going to try and put names to your descriptions of fallen jedi. I do not recognize the first. The second ones sound like Revan and Malik. And the third like Dooku. But Dooku was a Jedi allowed to depart the order for political needs. Hence his title of Count. That option seems to be that even if raised apart from families, the jedi keep record of who came from where.

[TrueMetis]

I don't have any real evidence it's not bad, but without evidence that it is I'm not going to assume negative connotations. I will only say, that the worst of the fallen Jedi, the one that really did damage, was the one Jedi who hadn't been through the Jedi education system, and the other ones that fell are ones that had been away for the Jedi for long periods of time, or dismissed the Jedi way out of arrogant presumption of what they were owed.

Getting thick on quotes so gonna try and reply and thin it down a hair.
First part, alright I can concede that from another point of view and lack of audience knowledge you can get a different take away from the counselling scene. Though I think Yoda could have been a little more empathic there.

True, though given his lack of information I think he did alright. He assumed he was dealing with a normal Jedi with normal Jedi problems. Not someone who had been lying to the order for years.

Second is a scene from the Last Jedi near the end. The boy that helped release the racing animals and had the resistance logo. He reached his hand out and a broom jumped to his hand. He is too young to be one of Luke's apprentices so we need assume he is not a jedi trained. Though obviously attuned to the force.

Huh, that's different. May have to change my arguments if Disney is altering a few of a fundamental aspects of canon.

Hmm. I am going to try and put names to your descriptions of fallen jedi. I do not recognize the first. The second ones sound like Revan and Malik. And the third like Dooku. But Dooku was a Jedi allowed to depart the order for political needs. Hence his title of Count. That option seems to be that even if raised apart from families, the jedi keep record of who came from where.

The first is Anakin himself, who brought the Jedi to their knees, coming in as he was older and with a master already established he wasn't taught the same as the rest of the Jedi. The second is Dooku who spent a lot of time in the field and away from the rest of the Jedi, he became disillusioned with the order and the senate and the farther he distanced himself the less he agreed with the Jedi's methods, going from a supporter to believing it was possible to use the darkside without corruption. He eventually left the order and reclaimed his family title falling to the darkside shortly after. The third was Xanatos a former Padawan of Qui-gon who was older than most when he came to the temple and remembered his former life. He was the son of a powerful man and remember a life of wealth and so felt he was owed more than everyone else. He eventually met up with his father, a very corrupt man, and was convinced to return home. He would eventually fall to the darkside after his father was killed in an attempt to seize power on his homeworld.

Interestingly Dooku is something of an exception in terms of the Jedi who fell to the Darkside in the Prequel era. The common thread of the other Jedi who fell is a form of entitlement, IE Xanatos who felt he was entitled to the finer things in life, Bruck Chun who felt he was entitled to become a Jedi, even Anakin, who felt entitled to being elevated to the position of Jedi Master. Dooku however fell not because he felt he was owed something, but because he felt that not enough was being done by either the Senate or the Jedi to help people.

[Nealithi]

Interestingly Dooku is something of an exception in terms of the Jedi who fell to the Darkside in the Prequel era. The common thread of the other Jedi who fell is a form of entitlement, IE Xanatos who felt he was entitled to the finer things in life, Bruck Chun who felt he was entitled to become a Jedi, even Anakin, who felt entitled to being elevated to the position of Jedi Master. Dooku however fell not because he felt he was owed something, but because he felt that not enough was being done by either the Senate or the Jedi to help people.

Hmm, but it goes along with Revan's fall. The Jedi of his era sitting on their hands while worlds burned. People needed help and the Jedi just sat back and said. 'Not our problem'.

[TrueMetis]

Interestingly Dooku is something of an exception in terms of the Jedi who fell to the Darkside in the Prequel era. The common thread of the other Jedi who fell is a form of entitlement, IE Xanatos who felt he was entitled to the finer things in life, Bruck Chun who felt he was entitled to become a Jedi, even Anakin, who felt entitled to being elevated to the position of Jedi Master. Dooku however fell not because he felt he was owed something, but because he felt that not enough was being done by either the Senate or the Jedi to help people.

Hmm, but it goes along with Revan's fall. The Jedi of his era sitting on their hands while worlds burned. People needed help and the Jedi just sat back and said. 'Not our problem'.

Though that was only really the start, and may not have gone much farther than a disagreement had Revan not ended up in the clutches of the Emperor... which now that I think about it is basically what happened with Dooku.

[Yukaphile]

Actually, Dooku was an entitled noble in the ROTS novel.