FaxModem1 wrote:See, and there's also other examples of TNG-era genetic transformation not being a big deal. Picard's crew don't flip out in Unnatural Selection upon meeting genetically engineered humans, nor in the Masterpiece Society. So this runs us into the problem of how the canon treats how the Federation treats genetic manipulation.
Note that the Masterpiece society was not part of the Federation and so not part of the rules. A matter of interpretation, but I don't think they flipped out to much about the humans on Angel One who were interfering with that society's development which they were allowed to do because they were not star fleet and so not bound by the prime directive (which is presumably more important then the regs against augmented humans). There is an argument that the Federation is a bit too live and let live, but that makes them not flipping out over genetic augmentation make sense, they may personally disagree with it but hey you got a live and let live man. Also despite not "flipping out" over the Masterpiece Society the Enterprise may have rendered it non-viable by letting its residents claim asylum and transport away etc. but hey they calmly and in and orderly manner destroyed the society so that means they have no real problem with it? Also just doing some random googling to refresh my memory, I am not clear that I would call Picard's reaction not flipping out when he says "they managed to breed out the unknown, self-discovery, things that make life worth living."
So I disagree with your point about the Masterpiece Society (not really that at odds with the idea that in the Federation there might be restrictions or a ban on that sort of genetic engineering), but Unnatural Selection is clearly a continuity snarl because the station is supposed to be a federation science outpost, which makes their creation of radically altered human children at odds with the idea that human augmentation has been outlawed/strictly limited since the Eugenics War. Apparently in at least one novel they address this by saying an exception was made for the station and many people though and think it is a mistake including Picard, but I suspect the novels are probably an even worse continuity snarl, it does suggest how obvious the continuity problem this episode has such that at least one author thought it was worth offering an explanation. Another indication that the whole "No genetic augmentation because Eugenics war" piece of background is a later confection is that in the original TOS episode Space Seed. They never make any reference to having outlawed genetic engineering or the like. Although since the humans on the Enterprise are not genetic supermen something happened, but it is not really suggested it was some blanket ban. So yeah the idea of a ban does not sit well with earlier episodes, but you could equally say that without some bans or limits why wouldn't all the star fleet people be genetically augmented etc.
An interesting thing is that it sometimes seems that it is human genetic augmentation that is illegal, not Vulcan or Andorian etc. only humans can't have their genetics augmented at will, for all we know every other species in the federation are a races of genetically perfected demigods. I think not, but the wording around it is kind of weird.
I think this discussion is taking the statements as too precise and definitive. Note that Julian only says he was "trying" to tell a cat from a dog, logically that is consistent trying and failing or trying and succeeding. A bit of a stretch and if had said "struggling" I think it would have been more ambiguous, but I think at least a little ambiguity is still there. Not clear if he was struggling but succeeding to tell a cat from a dog would be consistent with not having a severe mental disability, but I am guessing it suggests less... I think the intention is for young Jules to have been a borderline case, so that his parents decision is likewise ambiguous. If he was definitely not severe disabled that would also not work, it needs to be ambiguous. Perhaps real life would not afford such an ambiguity about a 6 year old...
Which is why I also brought up Miral's spine corrections in Voyager. It makes Unnatural Selection less of an odd duck. Unless you subscribe to the theory that the Doctor is performing mad science in the Delta Quadrant.
FaxModem1 wrote:Which is why I also brought up Miral's spine corrections in Voyager. It makes Unnatural Selection less of an odd duck. Unless you subscribe to the theory that the Doctor is performing mad science in the Delta Quadrant.
Giving kids telepathy and telekinesis at a level no other human has ever exhibited is pretty clearly augmentation compared to engineering a standard spine...
In any case even in the Enterprise Augment arc, it ends with the Federation apparently willing to analyze Soong's genetic research on the genetic disorder (the on Archer's dad had?), which implies they were at least considering if not already implementing some kind of therapeutic exception to the human genetic engineering ban. Looking it up in the Doctor Bashir I Presume, episode there is an exemption for genetic engineering of serious birth defects. So its not really in question that they allow some genetic engineering, they do. The question is how much? The answer seems to be less than shown in Unnatural Selection, which creates a continuity problem.
Even so, I think Unnatural Selection is the outlier in terms of depicting openness to radical genetic transformation and the general portrayal of the humans of the Federation suggests a rather diverse population who appear not to far from the range of genetic diversity of 21st century humans with no obvious augmentation or widespread genetic manipulation (a la the Masterpiece Society).
Yours Truly,
Allan Olley
"It is with philosophy as with religion : men marvel at the absurdity of other people's tenets, while exactly parallel absurdities remain in their own." John Stuart Mill
I really can't understand why SF Debris ranked this episode so low, even below "Shadowplay." The reason he gave there was that it's more entertaining for the mechanics of the piece, yet I think structurally that this episode works better. I dunno, I just think it's a great Bashir-centric episode that lets him be a hero on his terms, and Trevean was refreshing as an antagonist since he's really a kindly guy in his own way. Three feels kind of insulting, tbh. Probably this is going to be my biggest divergence from his views on DS9.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Every once in a while an episode just doesn't jibe with someone. Inner Light is a favorite episode of probably 99% of the fandom, and I couldn't get past that in "Violations" this was called rape. That was a hard stop for me. In Drumhead, Picard mischaracterizes something, and I also thought his speech was stupid because I was focusing on it logically, and I couldn't get past that. Things like "well, if it chains us all 'irrevocably,' why bother changing now?" Others are likely to think that nitpicking of the worst sort. I just can't turn off the logic part of my brain, at least not without something at least 80 proof.
Others will accept that Picard was abused on some level in Inner Light, but see the rest of the episode as so good as to excuse it (like I overlook some plot holes in Best of Both Worlds -- I'm not claiming any high ground here), or will say that the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the one and the assault was justified. And the speech from Drumhead sounds nice if you don't take it literally. There are probably episodes of something or other that I saw when I was just having a bad day, and I'll always dislike them because of it. Star Trek (2009) did not feel like Star Trek to me (Urban's performance aside), and I'm hard-pressed to think of a less helpful criticism I can offer, but there it is.
In the end, our like for an episode probably isn't any algorithm that we can put down on paper, much less justify logically.
Writing for Vulcans would be so much easier...
But I'm stocking up on pitchforks and torches for Homeward. Supplies are limited! Order yours now!
At the time, when the 3 was still fresh in the air, it was perhaps fair to stick up for this episode a little bit, share a touch of the silver lining in a dry but heartfelt episode. IMO this episode was more likeable than that number might indicate, but it is true that it's a bit macabre and off-model, even for DS9.
Plus there's only so many slow Season 1 and Season 2 episodes in this particular series to whittle down the all-scores-are-relative rating scale. It's less fun than Shadowplay and waaaay less fun than Take me out to the Holosuite.
Plus, if SFDebris wants to bag on an episode, ANY episode, so be it! Sure is more lively on the forum when the rating is controversial than when it meets expectations, after all. Not many reviews get bumps at 5 and 11 months.
Personal preference, really. You're right that there's only so much garbage to fill out the bottom, but for me, there's also a lot in Season 7 I'd put down below this to get it above a 3. This is a great character episode that focuses on Bashere. Most episodes that focus on him are either about him being genetically enhanced, or are about his relationships with others (like Garak or O'Brien or, cringe, Ezri).
This was a great episode for him, and it gut-punches you with the twist of not magically solving all the issues at the end of the episode. He found a solution, but it was still an imperfect one.
It let Bashir be a realistic hero. I loved that. I think the 3 was insulting, tbh. I don't begrudge Chuck his opinion, but... meh. I dunno. His explanation felt wrong. Even for something that was a well-executed flop, a 3? Really? Seems a 4 would have fit better. A 3 is too damned low, imo.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
It’s his opinion, much like how he thinks the first season of ENTERPRISE is a garbage bin on fire that he wouldn’t even bother pissing on to put it out.
Did I deny that? No. It's my opinion to feel that was too low, however, even for the explanation he gave.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:19 am
It let Bashir be a realistic hero. I loved that. I think the 3 was insulting, tbh. I don't begrudge Chuck his opinion, but... meh. I dunno. His explanation felt wrong. Even for something that was a well-executed flop, a 3? Really? Seems a 4 would have fit better. A 3 is too damned low, imo.
What really is the difference between a 4 and a 3 though?
