So, the cannibal Empress is getting her own series

[Zoinksberg]

I guess I just hope they interpret the 'mirror' part of Mirror Georgiou liberally

The Terran Empire insignia in Discovery had the Earth literally mirrored and spinning backwards and an upside down Delta Shield. Subtlety does not seem to be something we should be expecting in this show.

[Independent George]

Worked for Agents of Shield.

I was actually thinking of Agents of Shield when outlining the difficulty of doing an espionage drama. And Alias. The only successful spy drama I've ever seen on TV was the BBC adaptation of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. I guess Mission: Impossible might qualify, but I really think of that that as more of a heist show than a spy show.

[Karha of Honor]

Worked for Agents of Shield.

I was actually thinking of Agents of Shield when outlining the difficulty of doing an espionage drama. And Alias. The only successful spy drama I've ever seen on TV was the BBC adaptation of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. I guess Mission: Impossible might qualify, but I really think of that that as more of a heist show than a spy show.

The Americans...

[MithrandirOlorin]

We all just need to accept that Star Trek is dead, it's been dead since Enterprise and none of these attempts to revive it are going to pan out.

[Independent George]

The Americans...

Dammit. Yeah, The Americans did it right.

[Karha of Honor]

We all just need to accept that Star Trek is dead, it's been dead since Enterprise and none of these attempts to revive it are going to pan out.

Dead? The books don't come out anymore?

[Deledrius]

Mind you, Section 31 as a protagonist is just...

"Spy show in Star Trek."

I think that's probably the cause of this fundamental misunderstanding by the outsiders working on the property. They see Section 31 as an undercover intelligence outfit, not as a fundamental betrayal of Federation values. It's an easy mistake to make, and given the trouble with nuance CBS's production team has, an obvious one.

I think it might be possible to do an interesting show in this setting that doesn't trample the Federation, but I don't have any faith based on what I've seen that the people making it even recognize the required balancing act, let alone that they're capable of performing it.

[Actarus]

Mind you, Section 31 as a protagonist is just...

"Spy show in Star Trek."

I think that's probably the cause of this fundamental misunderstanding by the outsiders working on the property. They see Section 31 as an undercover intelligence outfit, not as a fundamental betrayal of Federation values. It's an easy mistake to make, and given the trouble with nuance CBS's production team has, an obvious one.

I think it might be possible to do an interesting show in this setting that doesn't trample the Federation, but I don't have any faith based on what I've seen that the people making it even recognize the required balancing act, let alone that they're capable of performing it.

Section 31 is and is not a betrayal of Federation values. I know it seems contradictory, but their aim is to protect the Federation as it is by any means necessary. So that means that they actually share its core values. They want the Federation to remain that pristine shelter of democracy, individual rights, cooperation between the species and scientific advancement. They just think that to do so, some people have to get their hands dirty (without the Federation knowing it too much) so that its citizen can keep their hands clean. And that's where Georgiou may be interesting here. Because as the former Emperor of the Terran Empire, she might have some means that even Section 31's leadership may find a little bit extreme... Her character will have to change too (like beginning to apreciate the value of alien lives) so, if it's done well, it could give an interesting show.

[Zoinksberg]

That's the problem, Section 31 is extremely nuanced and contradictory. I have zero confidence in any writing team under Kurtzman has what it takes to write that. So far Discovery has backed me up on that.

If you want to understand Section 31 then look at their first appearance. They saw Bashir and his belief in the values of the Federation. In that they knew they had either an Idealist or a True Believer. The entire test was to see which he was.

Section 31 are True Believers, they believe in the values of the Federation. They then commit acts directly contradictory to those values, at least in the eyes of an outsider. To the eyes of Section 31 they are preserving those ideals. I would say that they don't even believe they are getting their hands dirty, as True Believers they would be betraying their values if they didn't do what was necessary to protect them.

Bashir, as it turned out in the end, was an Idealist. He believes in the same values, but believes that any contradiction to those values means the entire basis of the values are lost. He is a doctor, he cures to save lives. The idea to kill to save lives might make sense to him from a "we go to war, kill, and die so we may live" sense, but deep down he cannot rectify this and so sets it aside as most of us would. Without the ability to say "War is Peace" and believe it without questioning he cannot be a True Believer. Bashir feels Section 31 betray the Federation, Section 31 admires his idealism but knows he couldn't have it without them.

Section 31 is a contradiction in the Orwellian sense and nothing seen so far has indicated that the showrunners understand that. If this show gets made (my expectations of that happening have dropped significantly) then it may be an interesting series, but I have no hope that it will do anything but destroy Section 31.

[Yukaphile]

Getting back to the original topic, cannibal empress... of the Klingon Empire? See, that sits wrong with me for a few reasons, and not even because the Klingons' looks had changed. Lemme run down the problems.

1) The continuity, obviously. By TNG, Gowron had said there hadn't been an "emperor" and that would include an "empress" for "three centuries," and that would include the TOS era. It's supposed to be a Chancellor leading a High Council that's an assembly of all the great Houses, not... OMG. Obviously these numb nuts know nothing about the long history of Trek, and I get that they might not wanna sit down and watch over 700 hours of airtime, really, I DO get that... but then why don't they at least feel inclined to wanna browse through Memory Alpha to at least educate themselves on the universe they're writing for? That only takes an hour reading through articles at most for 800 episodes and a dozen movies. It's because as others have pointed out this illustrates their mindset. They don't give a shit about the story so much as selling the product, which is CBS All Access. Their product is the main focal point. The story? Distant second place.

2) The Klingons, in TOS, were so obviously based on the Soviets and Imperialist Easterners of the time, fear of Eastern expansion. And when TNG came around, that was expanded to include the Vikings and the Japanese, elements of their culture. So for the writers to do something as blatantly stupid as insist that they were looking to "tribal African people" for inspiration is about as stupid and offensive as you can... and then some people think STD is somehow SJW? That seems like the kind of thing right-wingers would say! But getting back to topic, I know the Soviets had a lot of problems, but besides the famines, they didn't have a problem with cannibalism - and that was centered mostly around the Ukraine rather than Russia proper, which the Klingons were paying homage to. And as far as I know, the Japanese and the Vikings didn't eat their enemies either. They should stay true to the spirit of the character, which for the TOS era, would be the Soviets or Imperialist Easterners. Is that so much to ask?