My idea for a revised version of The Last Jedi

[Yukaphile]

I was discussing the flaws of the Jedi in another thread, and I had this little niggler of an idea I needed to get off my chest. Rian Johnson wanted Luke to be bitter and turn on the Force, to be kind of like Kreia, an old hermit who's lost faith in everything. Okay then. I think I have a better take on that, and I want your guys' opinions.

As he rebuilt the New Republic, Luke had learned everything that led to the fall of the Jedi, not the propaganda the Emperor spewed, but the legitimate truth. And he felt heartbroken. He realized the Jedi Council's own flaws had doomed them, that they had become too complacent, too arrogant and self-assured, and that the Jedi Order paid the price. He began questioning everything Ben and Yoda had ever instructed him in. He shared all this with Kylo Ren, who began to grow increasingly displeased with the Jedi, wondering if perhaps they were not the right people to rule the galaxy, and thus, his obsession with Vader began, and how the galaxy had been so ordered when he was in charge, as they fight off wave after wave of petty border skirmishes and people keep dying left and right. Luke is getting very worried, so... well, you could keep the "tempted to murder him in his sleep thing," or make it a misunderstanding. And then with the fall of Kylo Ren, Luke comes to the conclusion the Force had set up the Jedi for slaughter with Order 66, and renounced the Force and all it stood for, thus he retired to the planet he appeared on within Last Jedi, and didn't care about Jedi, or Sith, or anything. He was tired of fighting. He felt he had done his part. Let Han and Leia carry out the rest. He was sick of it all. He wouldn't fight if the Force wasn't what his masters had taught him. Hell, you could even have Rey tell him Han had died, and that tempts him to come back to the fight. And as he dies, I could totally see Luke spitting out a, "I fight for my friends, not the Force!" line for the trailer.

Now admittedly, I haven't seen any of the new movies since 2015, but... what do you guys think of this rough outline? Would it have worked better than what we actually got in Last Jedi?

[Nealithi]

I was discussing the flaws of the Jedi in another thread, and I had this little niggler of an idea I needed to get off my chest. Rian Johnson wanted Luke to be bitter and turn on the Force, to be kind of like Kreia, an old hermit who's lost faith in everything. Okay then. I think I have a better take on that, and I want your guys' opinions.

As he rebuilt the New Republic, Luke had learned everything that led to the fall of the Jedi, not the propaganda the Emperor spewed, but the legitimate truth. And he felt heartbroken. He realized the Jedi Council's own flaws had doomed them, that they had become too complacent, too arrogant and self-assured, and that the Jedi Order paid the price. He began questioning everything Ben and Yoda had ever instructed him in. He shared all this with Kylo Ren, who began to grow increasingly displeased with the Jedi, wondering if perhaps they were not the right people to rule the galaxy, and thus, his obsession with Vader began, and how the galaxy had been so ordered when he was in charge, as they fight off wave after wave of petty border skirmishes and people keep dying left and right. Luke is getting very worried, so... well, you could keep the "tempted to murder him in his sleep thing," or make it a misunderstanding. And then with the fall of Kylo Ren, Luke comes to the conclusion the Force had set up the Jedi for slaughter with Order 66, and renounced the Force and all it stood for, thus he retired to the planet he appeared on within Last Jedi, and didn't care about Jedi, or Sith, or anything. He was tired of fighting. He felt he had done his part. Let Han and Leia carry out the rest. He was sick of it all. He wouldn't fight if the Force wasn't what his masters had taught him. Hell, you could even have Rey tell him Han had died, and that tempts him to come back to the fight. And as he dies, I could totally see Luke spitting out a, "I fight for my friends, not the Force!" line for the trailer.

Now admittedly, I haven't seen any of the new movies since 2015, but... what do you guys think of this rough outline? Would it have worked better than what we actually got in Last Jedi?

I may have to watch the movie again to verify. But I think Luke had some similar thoughts to this. That the jedi were not all they should be. And he wanted to break the cycle. Your plot line would be better than what broke him. Which was out of no where he sensed darkness in Ben and went to kill him. . . (Which was one of those wth? moments for me as it was not the Luke we knew and no reason given for him to suddenly be like that.) So the idea is better than was on screen. I am just not sure it would feel satisfying enough.

[Draco Dracul]

I was discussing the flaws of the Jedi in another thread, and I had this little niggler of an idea I needed to get off my chest. Rian Johnson wanted Luke to be bitter and turn on the Force, to be kind of like Kreia, an old hermit who's lost faith in everything. Okay then. I think I have a better take on that, and I want your guys' opinions.

You're starting from a faulty premise. Luke doesn't turn on the force, he's so ashamed that he feels he's unworthy of it. He's certainly bitter, but his ire is directed at the Jedi order, and himself, not the force which he's come to realize can get on fine without the Jedi.

[Yukaphile]

My feeling is Rian Johnson wanted to do a KOTOR 2 style deconstruction of Star Wars, which would mean Kreia style themes. Thus it's logical for him to eventually turn on the Force. I would love to see a legit "rage against the heavens" type in Star Wars that's done well, and for me, Kreia was such a character. Mostly because I tend to rage against the heavens myself, and question issues of fate vs. free will and what awaits us afterward. And I also confessed I never watched the movies. I'm not basing this off what he does. This is my proposal for an alternate take to Last Jedi. What I would have done. What do you guys think?

[Draco Dracul]

I was discussing the flaws of the Jedi in another thread, and I had this little niggler of an idea I needed to get off my chest. Rian Johnson wanted Luke to be bitter and turn on the Force, to be kind of like Kreia, an old hermit who's lost faith in everything. Okay then. I think I have a better take on that, and I want your guys' opinions.

As he rebuilt the New Republic, Luke had learned everything that led to the fall of the Jedi, not the propaganda the Emperor spewed, but the legitimate truth. And he felt heartbroken. He realized the Jedi Council's own flaws had doomed them, that they had become too complacent, too arrogant and self-assured, and that the Jedi Order paid the price. He began questioning everything Ben and Yoda had ever instructed him in. He shared all this with Kylo Ren, who began to grow increasingly displeased with the Jedi, wondering if perhaps they were not the right people to rule the galaxy, and thus, his obsession with Vader began, and how the galaxy had been so ordered when he was in charge, as they fight off wave after wave of petty border skirmishes and people keep dying left and right. Luke is getting very worried, so... well, you could keep the "tempted to murder him in his sleep thing," or make it a misunderstanding. And then with the fall of Kylo Ren, Luke comes to the conclusion the Force had set up the Jedi for slaughter with Order 66, and renounced the Force and all it stood for, thus he retired to the planet he appeared on within Last Jedi, and didn't care about Jedi, or Sith, or anything. He was tired of fighting. He felt he had done his part. Let Han and Leia carry out the rest. He was sick of it all. He wouldn't fight if the Force wasn't what his masters had taught him. Hell, you could even have Rey tell him Han had died, and that tempts him to come back to the fight. And as he dies, I could totally see Luke spitting out a, "I fight for my friends, not the Force!" line for the trailer.

Now admittedly, I haven't seen any of the new movies since 2015, but... what do you guys think of this rough outline? Would it have worked better than what we actually got in Last Jedi?

I may have to watch the movie again to verify. But I think Luke had some similar thoughts to this. That the jedi were not all they should be. And he wanted to break the cycle. Your plot line would be better than what broke him. Which was out of no where he sensed darkness in Ben and went to kill him. . . (Which was one of those wth? moments for me as it was not the Luke we knew and no reason given for him to suddenly be like that.) So the idea is better than was on screen. I am just not sure it would feel satisfying enough.

Right I mean that would be like Luke flying into violent rage and nearly killing the man he came to save. It's a total departure from his established character and not a sign that he's grown from where he was in RotJ.

[Jonathan101]

Mark Hamill was very outspoken about his misgivings about the direction that Rian was taking Luke, and your version doesn't seem much different.

Sure, you might end up with something closer to KOTOR 2 and more sophisticated a deconstruction for it...but the problem is that a deconstruction in the first place. The most "Kreia" thing Luke did on TLJ was cut from the script and never filmed- warning Rey not to intervene in a local bandit raiding problem because their might be consequences and balance must be maintained- but had it remained all it would have done is made what Rian was going for more blatant...and would have been ridiculed for it even more.

Basically, the people who love The Last Jedi tend to be those who enjoy the fact that it is subversive and undermines what we would have expected from Luke and others...and those who hate it do so for those exact same reasons (there were other issues regarding plot and dumb characters etc., but that was the big one).

In other words, if you want to do KOTOR 2...then make KOTOR 2. Don't turn Luke Skywalker into Kreia, because he isn't.

[Yukaphile]

Well, in my proposed alternate take, I also suggested a misunderstanding. I could see Luke turning into someone who's felt the Force wasn't what his mentors told him it was, and that the way of the Jedi wasn't for him after all, with the decades to come, but the murdering Kylo Ren thing is just... yeah. It could be Luke had had a dream about Kylo Ren turning to the dark side, and he knew the Jedi's past actions doomed them, so here, he might be thinking about Vader, especially given that Kylo Ren is looking for new answers to stabilize the galaxy, and coming to counsel Ben, and because of something his father or mother or Luke had said that he'd overheard, he thinks he's coming to kill him because he's worried he's turning into another Vader. So he just embraces that path. Luke could then realize it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, which doomed his father, and make him wonder what's the point of knowing the future if you can't change it? Of having power if you can't help people? It would help if around this time there had been mistrust growing around Force-sensitives. Like if perhaps revealing that Vader was Anakin all along damaged the Jedi's credibility. They wanted to be an honest government, so... people began losing faith in him, and Kylo stood by him, hence why he'd feel inclined to wanna embrace Vader's path, keeping order through rigid discipline and terror rather than letting people decide for themselves if they wanna do the wrong thing. If it were a well-done story, the misunderstanding could tie into Snoke somehow, and admittedly, I'm NOT following this movie trilogy at all, but... well, yeah. How would you guys go about setting up from this hypothetical movie I'm constructing in Last Jedi's place?

EDIT: Just saw your reply. I'm trying to see if I can make Last Jedi into something workable.

[Draco Dracul]

Mark Hamill was very outspoken about his misgivings about the direction that Rian was taking Luke, and your version doesn't seem much different.

Sure, you might end up with something closer to KOTOR 2 and more sophisticated a deconstruction for it...but the problem is that a deconstruction in the first place. The most "Kreia" thing Luke did on TLJ was cut from the script and never filmed- warning Rey not to intervene in a local bandit raiding problem because their might be consequences and balance must be maintained- but had it remained all it would have done is made what Rian was going for more blatant...and would have been ridiculed for it even more.

Basically, the people who love The Last Jedi tend to be those who enjoy the fact that it is subversive and undermines what we would have expected from Luke and others...and those who hate it do so for those exact same reasons (there were other issues regarding plot and dumb characters etc., but that was the big one).

In other words, if you want to do KOTOR 2...then make KOTOR 2. Don't turn Luke Skywalker into Kreia, because he isn't.

I don't think Johnson was going for deconstruction at all, and I think a lot of what he does with Luke is to try and salvage the set up Abrams created for Luke. From a purely narrative prospective I think the reason Luke cuts himself off from the force is to have a reason why Luke didn't come back to try and save Han.

[G-Man]

I think the idea of Luke trying to kill Ben Solo could have worked if there had been more of a reason for it than "Ben Solo set off Luke's evil detector."

Basically, the people who love The Last Jedi tend to be those who enjoy the fact that it is subversive and undermines what we would have expected from Luke and others...and those who hate it do so for those exact same reasons (there were other issues regarding plot and dumb characters etc., but that was the big one).

I think the bigger problem is that the subversions are done poorly. Often from scene-to-scene what will happen is basically coin-flip. Because of this, there is a lot of sense that whatever happens in a scene has no bearing on on the movie once that scene is over. Leia flying being one of the biggest examples of this - Leis is able to use the Force in a way we have not seen before - flying through the vacuum of space - and after solving that one problem, it never comes up again.

[Yukaphile]

Wrong. In Darth Bane, Bane flew between the atmospheres of Dxun and Onderon. So it's plausible.