Nonsense. Kaio-ken works by amping your stats like strength and speed to higher levels, it doesn't magically make you immune to things. Goku was just moving so fast that even when time was stopped he was faster than Hit.
See, this is where I have to disagree. Power scaling in Z was consistent up until the Buu Saga, then the creative team gave Toriyama too much control, when they shouldn't have. He always wanted to "subvert expectations," so the power scaling from then on makes no sense. I'm too tired right now to really get into it, but power scaling was at its peak in Z and GT. Not so much anymore. Point being, amping your stats... how does that translate into DC? Are power levels linear? Roshi with a power level of 130 could blow up the moon. Frieza with a power level of 120,000,000, if you wanted to be extremely generous, could blow up a dwarf star, based on scaling from the Planet Vegeta feat (btw, was that in the Broly movie? I haven't got a chance to see it yet, but if it's not, that could be a retcon). How does the gap between power levels translate to how much they can destroy? I don't think these can possibly be consistent, so just amping your stats... is very vague. It's basically video game fighting. Your power level goes up... to something you can't quantify. Very impressive. And that was sarcasm. At least Cell could blow up the solar system. And I don't doubt he can. So that's more concrete than power scaling. I don't even use power scaling for Z debates anymore, mostly fanfiction.
Again, Jiren's power was stated to be beyond the concept of time itself. And that was while he was heavily suppressed. Not to mention Goku can reach his top speeds instantly but the Flash has to struggle to even get to the speed of light or he might be absorbed into the speedforce. He's only gone faster than that when he had temporary powerups.
He is NOT a transcendent being like those on Doctor Who, like the Q Continuum, or the Xeelee or Downstreamers or anything on their level. "Beyond the concept of time" was pure bullshit if he can't move freely through time like we can through the air like a Time Lord can, or a Q. Q is "beyond the concept of time." Jiren is not. If someone
could change the timeline, he would be affected. Thus, "beyond the concept of time" is pure hyperbole and a slogan meant to build excitement, like most shonen is. Hell, I'd argue Yu Yu Hakusho has better space-time feats, because there's a degree of nerdgasm to how much they layer their details. And wait, where are you getting this about Flash? Cite your sources. He could still steal Goku's speed, and Goku has shown no resistance to being immune to that. Also, I heard the Flash went so fast they changed the entire DC history during Flashpoint. Again, that suggests someone who could solo the whole verse. Just vibrate fast enough, you can alter everything that has ever happened.
1. Flash only destroyed his armor, which regenerated quickly.
2. No version of the Anti-Monitor could do shit to Goku.
Fine, whatever.
Don't mix and match your continuities then. All of that moving between moments in time stuff was Post-Crisis. So was the Anti-Monitor thing (it was a Post-Crisis story where he was sent back in time to fight him).
Why not? You think Goku could beat anyone, throughout any era of DC and Marvel. It's legit. By this logic, Reeve Superman, who just gets obliterated by Goku in terms of power and speed and abilities, could still beat Goku if he time-traveled and killed him as a baby. You'll just scream "parallel timelines," but hey, if Goku is fighting outside the DBS multiverse, why can't this work? Hell, since you're so stubborn about how "the timeline won't change..." that brings up issues of how these universes (DC or Marvel and DBS) coexist together? Where is the fight taking place? That could determine a lot of how this turns out, you know. DC/Marvel's multiverse structure when coming into contact with DBS's multiverse structure will clash, contradict one another. Why can't you see this?
Once again, that would just create a separate timeline. The Goku in the current timeline would be unaffected. Only a God of Destruction using Hakai can change the timeline, and even then it won't work if the target has a time ring or is at least as powerful as suppressed Jiren.
Because the DBS multiverse is set, doesn't mean it always has to be. I think you just prefer DBS and its approach because it's a solid form of time travel mechanic that most people prefer - creating stable parallel timelines, which is easier to pull off from a narrative standpoint than a stable time loop, or altering history, which is just filled with headache-inducing confusion. Take something like Trek, for example, which over the course of its run has created parallel timelines, participated in stable time loops, and changed history where the effects rippled forward to the future. But again, just because it's set down that time travel creates alternate timelines, doesn't mean there isn't a way history can be changed and affect the present. Hell, when Whis rewinds time, is that creating a parallel timeline? No. Thus you can't argue that that is the only method of time travel. Time travel invented by a machine, Bulma's time capsule, split the universe open, and it's ironic given how it then split the almighty Omni-King into four alternate selves, but whatever, and resulted in four timelines. I read somewhere when the gods influence time, it remains fixed. So your own argument is invalid. You think the structure of the DBS universe takes precedent over DC and Marvel. Why? The DBS multiverse isn't as fleshed out as DC and Marvel is. It remains at the whims of the writer as to whether or not time travel will affect the future. In this instance, I think Flash's time travel would affect the future, given the tech involved, but Superman's would not. Again, the dude warped the entire multiverse.
Thanos with the gauntlet had trouble hitting Captain America. Goku just snatches it off of his hand faster than he can possibly react.
AND GOKU GOT GUNNED DOWN BY A FUCKING LASER! You can't use low-end showings, only high-ends. And I'm talking the movie, too, not the better explanation they gave in the show. He was clearly in his Blue form, so being caught off-guard is really pathetic there. Goku also got scratched by a bullet. Don't use low-ends, and I won't either.
No, but that's stated when we saw that Jiren's ki was beyond time itself.
Again, hyperbole and statements as I listed above.
Hypertime is imaginary science invented for DC. String Theory is rarely even referenced in any comics and doesn't have anything to do with time travel anyway. You're just bullshitting here.
I
said science-fiction as well, didn't I? Tbh, I wish the DBS multiverse had been given that kind of fleshing out, but Toriyama always likes to keep it simple.
Super Shenron and Zalama.
Zarama = never shown, so he's pure theory. And Super Shenron... is bound to timelines the same way everything else in DBS is. Could he influence timelines outside his own? He has never shown such a feat, so it's doubtful he could change history. You'll probably say yes, so with that logic, why not go all the way and insist he could wish Azathoth out of existence and keep reality intact? Even though his feats to date suggest otherwise, that any "infinite wish" is strictly confined to his own realm. There's also the fact the Omni-King killed Infinite Zamasu, so that wish for immortality? Yeah, didn't happen. The Xenoverse games handled it better, by having Zamasu come back, to prove he can literally never die and even the Omni-King can't stop him.
Assuming everyone just stands there and lets him.
IIRC Thanos with the Infinity Gauntler has precognition, so he could see them coming.
It was directly stated that Jiren's power is greater than time itself. That means no time shenanigans could possibly work on him.
You really love your NLFs, don't you? All he did was resist Hit's limited time manipulation effects, from a mortal being stuck to the forward-moving momentum of space-time as much as anyone else is, even the gods, not those on the scale of beings like Dialga, the Q, or the Time Lords. Until he has shown such ability, it's doubtful he can. If he's "greater than time," a WHOLE FUCKING DIMENSION, he should be able to have powers like Dialga, the Time Lords, and the Q, BUT HE DOES NOT. Case closed.
So, like I said, you just shot down your own argument.
Whatever.
That profile is old and from before the 2015 Secret Wars where he was killed by a few Beyonders, and we saw people like Thor and Dr. Doom handling those guys.
Again, why I don't power scale anymore, not in DBZ or anything else.
I'll counter your inevitable reply at another time. I'm tired right now.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
