Dragon Ball Super vs. DC Comics and Marvel Comics Debate

[SSJGodGoku]

Nonsense. Kaio-ken works by amping your stats like strength and speed to higher levels, it doesn't magically make you immune to things. Goku was just moving so fast that even when time was stopped he was faster than Hit.

See, this is where I have to disagree. Power scaling in Z was consistent up until the Buu Saga, then the creative team gave Toriyama too much control, when they shouldn't have. He always wanted to "subvert expectations," so the power scaling from then on makes no sense. I'm too tired right now to really get into it, but power scaling was at its peak in Z and GT. Not so much anymore.

What are you even babbling about now? Everything up to the end of the Buu saga was adapted from the original manga, which was written and drawn completely by Toriyama. He didn't do much for GT other than some of the character designs. For Super, he wrote the plot and gave it to both Toei (for the anime) and Toyotaro (for the manga). It's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Point being, amping your stats... how does that translate into DC? Are power levels linear? Roshi with a power level of 130 could blow up the moon. Frieza with a power level of 120,000,000, if you wanted to be extremely generous, could blow up a dwarf star, based on scaling from the Planet Vegeta feat (btw, was that in the Broly movie? I haven't got a chance to see it yet, but if it's not, that could be a retcon). How does the gap between power levels translate to how much they can destroy? I don't think these can possibly be consistent, so just amping your stats... is very vague. It's basically video game fighting. Your power level goes up... to something you can't quantify. Very impressive. And that was sarcasm. At least Cell could blow up the solar system. And I don't doubt he can. So that's more concrete than power scaling. I don't even use power scaling for Z debates anymore, mostly fanfiction.

This is just a bunch of incoherent rambling. My point was that Goku surpassed Hit's time skip by using Kaio-Ken. Kaio-ken amps your stats like speed, and that's how he did it. It doesn't magically make you immune to other types of powers like you were suggesting.

He is NOT a transcendent being like those on Doctor Who, like the Q Continuum, or the Xeelee or Downstreamers or anything on their level. "Beyond the concept of time" was pure bullshit if he can't move freely through time like we can through the air like a Time Lord can, or a Q. Q is "beyond the concept of time." Jiren is not. If someone could change the timeline, he would be affected.

So now you're denying direct statements.



He doesn't need to travel through time to be immune to time-based powers, just like you don't have to be able to mindfuck people to be immune to telepathic attacks, or you don't have to have heat-based powers to be immune to fire. Abilities and immunity to them are two different things.

Thus, "beyond the concept of time" is pure hyperbole and a slogan meant to build excitement, like most shonen is.

So you're just going to ignore the facts and evidence.

Hell, I'd argue Yu Yu Hakusho has better space-time feats, because there's a degree of nerdgasm to how much they layer their details.

What, you mean Kuwabara's sword that can cut small dimensional barriers, something anyone in DB can do with enough ki, like Buu and Gotenks?

And wait, where are you getting this about Flash? Cite your sources.

It's been a fact of the character ever since COIE that going even close to the speed of light is dangerous for him because he could get absorbed into the speedforce.



Wally has to struggle every time he tries to go near that fast, for example read Blackest Night, he nearly failed to travel just a few seconds into the past to get the Black Lantern ring to stop pursuing him.

He could still steal Goku's speed, and Goku has shown no resistance to being immune to that.

How is he going to even try, if Goku is so much faster to begin with, and he can kill him just with his aura before he even gets close? Besides, Ultra Instinct means he can't be touched. Flash also can't steal Zoom's speed because it comes from time manipulation, and since Goku is beyond any kind of time manipulation, then it shouldn't work on him either.

Also, I heard the Flash went so fast they changed the entire DC history during Flashpoint. Again, that suggests someone who could solo the whole verse. Just vibrate fast enough, you can alter everything that has ever happened.

You 'heard', huh? That's convincing.

Facts: In that story the reason the multiverse was affected was because of the combined powers of Pandora and Dr. Manhattan (who is now part of DC). That also required prep and setup to do.

Why not? You think Goku could beat anyone, throughout any era of DC and Marvel. It's legit.

Okay, if you don't care about continuity and want to mix and match stuff together, I'll use the Super Dragonball Heroes game, Xenoverse, and promotional anime where it was stated that Xeno Goku was so powerful that just powering up to SSJ4 would destroy the entire timeline (basically like what Future Zeno did), and that Goku even using a potara fusion with Xeno Vegeta and forming SSJ4 Xeno Vegito still couldn't defeat Cumber, yet MUI DBS Goku one-shotted him. Xeno Goku also overpowered and defeated Demigra when he had absorbed the power of every possible timeline from the Time Nest by absorbing Tokitoki (the incarnation of time itself).

By this logic, Reeve Superman, who just gets obliterated by Goku in terms of power and speed and abilities, could still beat Goku if he time-traveled and killed him as a baby. You'll just scream "parallel timelines," but hey, if Goku is fighting outside the DBS multiverse, why can't this work? Hell, since you're so stubborn about how "the timeline won't change..." that brings up issues of how these universes (DC or Marvel and DBS) coexist together? Where is the fight taking place? That could determine a lot of how this turns out, you know. DC/Marvel's multiverse structure when coming into contact with DBS's multiverse structure will clash, contradict one another. Why can't you see this?

Any time travel will create an alternate timeline by default, this is true in DB, Marvel, and DC. You need special circumstances for something different to happen. And even if you have them, it won't matter, as Goku's ki is higher than Jiren when he was already beyond the concept of time.

Because the DBS multiverse is set, doesn't mean it always has to be. I think you just prefer DBS and its approach because it's a solid form of time travel mechanic that most people prefer - creating stable parallel timelines, which is easier to pull off from a narrative standpoint than a stable time loop, or altering history, which is just filled with headache-inducing confusion. Take something like Trek, for example, which over the course of its run has created parallel timelines, participated in stable time loops, and changed history where the effects rippled forward to the future. But again, just because it's set down that time travel creates alternate timelines, doesn't mean there isn't a way history can be changed and affect the present. Hell, when Whis rewinds time, is that creating a parallel timeline? No. Thus you can't argue that that is the only method of time travel. Time travel invented by a machine, Bulma's time capsule, split the universe open, and it's ironic given how it then split the almighty Omni-King into four alternate selves, but whatever, and resulted in four timelines. I read somewhere when the gods influence time, it remains fixed. So your own argument is invalid. You think the structure of the DBS universe takes precedent over DC and Marvel. Why? The DBS multiverse isn't as fleshed out as DC and Marvel is. It remains at the whims of the writer as to whether or not time travel will affect the future. In this instance, I think Flash's time travel would affect the future, given the tech involved, but Superman's would not. Again, the dude warped the entire multiverse.

Like I said before, time travel creates alternate timelines by default in all of those verses and the actual past can only be changed in specific circumstances. Flash can't do that. And even if he could it wouldn't matter, because anyone on suppressed Jiren's level or above is immune to that anyway.

AND GOKU GOT GUNNED DOWN BY A FUCKING LASER! You can't use low-end showings, only high-ends. And I'm talking the movie, too, not the better explanation they gave in the show. He was clearly in his Blue form, so being caught off-guard is really pathetic there. Goku also got scratched by a bullet. Don't use low-ends, and I won't either.

First of all, the movie (Resurrection F) isn't canon anymore since the Super anime retconned it and changed the story. Secondly, it was specifically stated that happened because he had his guard down. The Goku I am using here is Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku, who can never be caught off-guard as his body acts on its own.

Again, hyperbole and statements as I listed above.

Prove it. You can't ignore evidence and call it hyperbole. In that case everything that TOAA could ever do is hyperbole since he's never shown doing anything.

I said science-fiction as well, didn't I? Tbh, I wish the DBS multiverse had been given that kind of fleshing out, but Toriyama always likes to keep it simple.

Don't try to get out of this. You said hypertime and string theory explained time travel in Marvel and DC, which is nonsense.

Zarama = never shown, so he's pure theory.

Coming from the guy who invokes characters like TOAA.

And Super Shenron... is bound to timelines the same way everything else in DBS is. Could he influence timelines outside his own? He has never shown such a feat, so it's doubtful he could change history. You'll probably say yes, so with that logic, why not go all the way and insist he could wish Azathoth out of existence and keep reality intact? Even though his feats to date suggest otherwise, that any "infinite wish" is strictly confined to his own realm.

It's stated he can grant any wish, no matter what it is.

There's also the fact the Omni-King killed Infinite Zamasu, so that wish for immortality? Yeah, didn't happen. The Xenoverse games handled it better, by having Zamasu come back, to prove he can literally never die and even the Omni-King can't stop him.

First of all, we don't know that Zamasu is gone for good. Second of all, Zeno wiped out the entire timeline, which would include all of Zamasu's past history and even the act of him making the wish in the first place. Also, he technically wished to be unkillable, not un-erasable.

IIRC Thanos with the Infinity Gauntler has precognition, so he could see them coming.

He couldn't foresee Nebula taking the Gauntlet from him, or Silver Surfer nearly doing so,
or Captain America dodging his punches, or Death being unwilling to talk to him after he got it.

You really love your NLFs, don't you? All he did was resist Hit's limited time manipulation effects, from a mortal being stuck to the forward-moving momentum of space-time as much as anyone else is, even the gods, not those on the scale of beings like Dialga, the Q, or the Time Lords. Until he has shown such ability, it's doubtful he can. If he's "greater than time," a WHOLE FUCKING DIMENSION, he should be able to have powers like Dialga, the Time Lords, and the Q, BUT HE DOES NOT. Case closed.

Maybe if all he did was resist Hit's powers you would have a point, but it was directly stated that time itself means nothing to Jiren's power. And, like I said before, you don't have to have a power to be immune to that power.

Again, why I don't power scale anymore, not in DBZ or anything else.

Then you can't debate or argue as powerscaling is an essential part of that.

I'll counter your inevitable reply at another time. I'm tired right now.

You mean you'll try to 'counter' it, but only expose more of your ignorance. I'll be waiting to tear your pathetic arguments to shreds again!

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

ahem

[Yukaphile]

What are you even babbling about now? Everything up to the end of the Buu saga was adapted from the original manga, which was written and drawn completely by Toriyama. He didn't do much for GT other than some of the character designs. For Super, he wrote the plot and gave it to both Toei (for the anime) and Toyotaro (for the manga). It's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I could go over the many ways power scaling was inconsistent in the Buu Saga and GT, and then in DBS it got even worse, but I'm not going to because it's pointless if you're just going to insult me. Power scalers, people like SethTheProgrammer who make this their hobby and absolutely abhor the disrespect Z gets from downplayers (who, btw, flat-out admitted Goku doesn't solo Marvel or DC, same as SSJRyu1 and Chuck the Cyber Cuck), have had a nightmare in trying to pinpoint precise levels of power. TheSaiyan17 has talked about this pretty in-depth. If you're just going to call me an idiot, then why even debate me since it's clear you hate me because you think I'm out to personally attack DBZ or something. More like your cherished fanboy fantasy of DBZ. If this is how it is going to be, then stop nagging me or I will report you.

This is just a bunch of incoherent rambling. My point was that Goku surpassed Hit's time skip by using Kaio-Ken. Kaio-ken amps your stats like speed, and that's how he did it. It doesn't magically make you immune to other types of powers like you were suggesting.

He said he's "moved to a place" that is "far beyond your Time-Skip now." What is that? What does it even mean? It implies he's either outsped the Time-Skip, or he's become immune to it through some kind of new godly hax. Why is that so hard to believe? It's fiction, bruh. Anything can happen. My point about power scaling is that given Goku's on-screen feats in Episode 12, a lot of people had calced this from very strong galaxy tier to high universal depending on who you ask. But now Goku's gotten a lot stronger since DBS began, how does that translate to actual DC in correlation with power levels? With each new jump, is he becoming multiversal like some DBZ highballers think he is? Zeno-sama is multiversal. Even Beerus is macroversal (which is the contained size of 2.5 universes), and Goku... might have surpassed him? Maybe. But it hasn't been confirmed yet, and so far, obviously he has not. So how does Beerus scale to the Episode 12 feat and the "castle" comment? If you abuse power scaling this way, you'd have Beerus calced to blow up 2,000 universes, when you need DAMN good evidence to ever claim he can do that. Even Omni-King's limit was 18 universes.

So now you're denying direct statements.

No - YOU are wanking Jiren. A being transcendent of time has complete mastery over it, can manipulate it to his whims, can play with it like a child molding putty, and move through it as freely as we move through air. A truly "transcendent" being is one who could move through time, stop it, start it up again, influence portions of it to run differently, fling people across history, a billion years into the past, 100,000 years into the future, and time travel, and be resistant to timeline changes. Jiren has not shown any ability to do these things past resisting a time-stop. It's impressive, but hardly true "transcendance." Others in fiction, such as the Q I'd listed, are far superior in their mastery over space-time. Google "transcendant." See what it means.

He doesn't need to travel through time to be immune to time-based powers, just like you don't have to be able to mindfuck people to be immune to telepathic attacks, or you don't have to have heat-based powers to be immune to fire. Abilities and immunity to them are two different things.

AGAIN... I will repeat... you are slapping him with a no-limits fallacy. Because he was shown to resist a specific kind of time manipulation, freezing time, you think it means he can thus resist all kinds of time manipulation, when again, to prove that's the case, you need FEATS, not statements. It's like claiming because you can resist most of the effects of being slapped in the face, you can survive the full kinetic impact of a boulder falling on you. I WILL REPEAT. So far he's shown he can resist time-stop. It does not mean he can resist it if some omnipotent being flung him 100,000,000 years into the past, or someone managed to change the timeline, that he could resist its effects. It's worth noting the DBS multiverse, despite being 12 universal "bubbles" is still treated as a singular space-time, with few exceptions, moving forward in all 12 "bubbles" at the same rate of speed. And he's shown very limited time hax resistance. To claim if you put him in another universe against beings with the kind of mastery over time that predates the universe itself in some cases, he could resist their attacks, simply based on how he performed in his universe, is mistaken. You need FEATS. Which he DOES NOT HAVE. Boy, you love your NLFs, don't you?

So you're just going to ignore the facts and evidence.

No, you're failing to understand what I'm trying to say here. And you're wanking DBS. Again. As usual.

What, you mean Kuwabara's sword that can cut small dimensional barriers, something anyone in DB can do with enough ki, like Buu and Gotenks?

Remember the Dark Soul? It swallowed them up, and contains a void within its stomach where it's chomped up the ruins of human buildings. It contains a dimension within itself. That's TARDIS level of complexity in terms of spatial and temporal manipulation. There is the HTC, of course, but that's why I said "few exceptions." Also, Buu and Gotenks powered up so much it broke space-time. Hooray. Some beings can do that with a blink of their non-corporal higher-dimensional eye. There's the Null Realm, of course, but... where is it located? They were never explicit. Again, this is what I was talking about, how DBZ tends to try and stay more simplistic. Null Realm is said to have no "time or space in it." How does that even work? I get they wanna include better feats for debaters, but... the thing is, people who crafted Star Trek and Doctor Who and The Culture and Animorphs and so on weren't even thinking about that, but they did have at least a little passing understanding with trying to include as much real or pseudo-realistic science or science-fiction as they could into their setting. We don't get that in a shonen anime meant for kids, and it sucks, because I wish we did. I'd love to see Tier 1 DBZ characters, but it's just a dream. It's never going to happen.

It's been a fact of the character ever since COIE that going even close to the speed of light is dangerous for him because he could get absorbed into the speedforce.

Wally has to struggle every time he tries to go near that fast, for example read Blackest Night, he nearly failed to travel just a few seconds into the past to get the Black Lantern ring to stop pursuing him.

Well, of course. The Post-Crisis era depowered the heroes, to make them less bullshit plot devices and more relatable characters.

How is he going to even try, if Goku is so much faster to begin with, and he can kill him just with his aura before he even gets close? Besides, Ultra Instinct means he can't be touched. Flash also can't steal Zoom's speed because it comes from time manipulation, and since Goku is beyond any kind of time manipulation, then it shouldn't work on him either.

You know, whatever, I'm just gonna concede to you on this, that Goku could beat Post-Crisis Flash. Because I never wanted to continue this debate. I never even gave it more than a passing thought, but you just kept coming back to nag me, even though I blocked you. And you hate me so much just because you don't agree with me, because I have a different interpretation than you do regarding your beloved pet franchise. I love DBZ, don't get me wrong, but I also refuse to believe they could solo all of fiction. I won't behave like a Saitama fanboy. And you are. You're being a fanboy. Like with your "transcends time" statements that ignores what I'm trying to tell you.

You 'heard', huh? That's convincing.

Facts: In that story the reason the multiverse was affected was because of the combined powers of Pandora and Dr. Manhattan (who is now part of DC). That also required prep and setup to do.

I think I heard that too. Very well then, I'll concede here as well.

Okay, if you don't care about continuity and want to mix and match stuff together, I'll use the Super Dragonball Heroes game, Xenoverse, and promotional anime where it was stated that Xeno Goku was so powerful that just powering up to SSJ4 would destroy the entire timeline (basically like what Future Zeno did), and that Goku even using a potara fusion with Xeno Vegeta and forming SSJ4 Xeno Vegito still couldn't defeat Cumber, yet MUI DBS Goku one-shotted him. Xeno Goku also overpowered and defeated Demigra when he had absorbed the power of every possible timeline from the Time Nest by absorbing Tokitoki (the incarnation of time itself).

:: crickets chirping ::

I have never played those at ALL. I don't understand what you're talking about. But no, Xeno Goku still doesn't solo fiction when there's so many other characters and cosmic entities out there that would utterly annihilate him. Also, maybe you should try and address my points regarding DBS Goku vs. the Pre-Crisis era, rather than just going and handpicking some of Goku's more bullshit forms that probably would win (I say probably because again, I haven't played those, so I can't debate them). You're being petulant and childish and all this because you think I'm a downplayer. It also suggests if you have to resort to that you know he'd lose.

Any time travel will create an alternate timeline by default, this is true in DB, Marvel, and DC. You need special circumstances for something different to happen. And even if you have them, it won't matter, as Goku's ki is higher than Jiren when he was already beyond the concept of time.

Cite your sources for DC and Marvel, because no, you don't strike me as a DC and Marvel fan. You're just claiming you create parallel timelines because it's what you feel it should be. I've watched Star Trek numerous times and can tell you Star Trek has the whole "change history" aspect to it as well. Have Q grab Superman and Goku and set them in the Star Trek universe, and Superman could just time-travel and escape, or kill him as a baby, but then this brushes up against the problem in that you're imposing the multiversal structure of DBS onto other franchises, when that is not so. Hell, I suspect I'll see even more of this as I progress through Doctor Who. And I will tell you that I think the Doctor with prep time could CRUSH Goku, as his tech is transcendent of time, how the Time Lords wrote the laws of probability in the universe (at least from my reading, again, barely started Who), and from everything I hear, they were wiping out entire timelines and galaxies being erased and restored in an instant. The Doctor could go back in time and kill Goku as a baby.

Like I said before, time travel creates alternate timelines by default in all of those verses and the actual past can only be changed in specific circumstances. Flash can't do that. And even if he could it wouldn't matter, because anyone on suppressed Jiren's level or above is immune to that anyway.

I've already proven how timelines change in Star Trek. The colony in DS9 vanished. A future Molly O'Brien vanished. All from timeline changes. You're having Goku fight DC and Marvel in his universe, because of course, then he has a home field advantage. But you said changing the timeline required "special circumstances." Well then, please tell me, oh good and noble DC and Marvel fan, what those special circumstances were, hmm? Bedazzle me with your knowledge. I think it depends on the universe you set this in. Period.

First of all, the movie (Resurrection F) isn't canon anymore since the Super anime retconned it and changed the story. Secondly, it was specifically stated that happened because he had his guard down. The Goku I am using here is Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku, who can never be caught off-guard as his body acts on its own.

Yeah, I can accept that, but as a DBZ fan, I get holy irritated in seeing the bullshit plot contrivances every time Goku lets his guard down in DBS. This only happened once in Z, when that rock hit him and rocked (HA!) his whole world. Other than that, Z presented it far better. Goku wasn't getting scratched by bullets. He wasn't getting hit with lasers. Krillin got scratched by a bullet. It's getting old. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Ultra Instinct put a huge strain on Goku's body? And he didn't use it in the Broly movie. Wish he had. Hope he does again and becomes Casual Ultra Instinct like Whis. I'd love that.

Prove it. You can't ignore evidence and call it hyperbole. In that case everything that TOAA could ever do is hyperbole since he's never shown doing anything.

I already have. You're not listening to me.

Don't try to get out of this. You said hypertime and string theory explained time travel in Marvel and DC, which is nonsense.

Don't you dare take that patronizing attitude with me! AND DON'T YOU DARE PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I said DC and Marvel and Star Trek and other franchises that are sci-fi put more emphasis on science than DBS does, which is more fantasy/adventure. If you're going to lie about me, then this debate is OVER.

Coming from the guy who invokes characters like TOAA.

TOAA scales to characters who scale to others who have feats. The cosmic abstracts. And you'll bring up how once again "they lose to weak characters!" Clearly that's a low-end showing that another writer felt would look cool or for plot reasons. It should be disregarded. Because if you do I'll retort with GOKU GETS OWNED BY LASERS. The fact it has a good excuse doesn't mean it's not stupid. It just presents the DBZ fighters as huge glass cannons, with the exceptions of the DBS gods.

It's stated he can grant any wish, no matter what it is.

DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT A NO-LIMITS FALLACY IS, BOY? Coming from the same numb nut who sneered "there are no true omnipotents in fiction." That is how you're treating Super Shenron. If I wished for Super Shenron to make Vados fall in love with me, it could do it? This should be rich.

First of all, we don't know that Zamasu is gone for good. Second of all, Zeno wiped out the entire timeline, which would include all of Zamasu's past history and even the act of him making the wish in the first place. Also, he technically wished to be unkillable, not un-erasable.

Well, I'd love to see Zamasu come back, but that's unlikely. AND NO. To claim the history leading up to that ceased to exist is PURE THEORY! As I said earlier, the DBS multiverse is twelve universal "bubbles" that move forward along the same spatial plane. If Zeno-sama were to erase them, their motion through time would come to a stop, but only at the moment he wiped them out. Everything preceding that would still exist if you could travel back to it. There is actually a term for this somewhere, I think on TV Tropes. And no, he wished to be "immortal," though admittedly that word is a bit vague.

He couldn't foresee Nebula taking the Gauntlet from him, or Silver Surfer nearly doing so,
or Captain America dodging his punches, or Death being unwilling to talk to him after he got it.

I read it was Thanos ultimately self-sabotaging him that led to his downfall. And that Living Tribunal shut the Gauntlet down.

Maybe if all he did was resist Hit's powers you would have a point, but it was directly stated that time itself means nothing to Jiren's power. And, like I said before, you don't have to have a power to be immune to that power.

A statement from Shin, which let's remember, hasn't had the best track record at being accurate. Refer to what I wrote about about what a truly "transcendant" being is. Jiren is not transcendant if the fourth dimension is not like air to him.

Then you can't debate or argue as powerscaling is an essential part of that.

You don't set the terms by which I debate, boy. Especially since you dragged me into this out of your pathological need to get the last word in. I don't understand why you hate me so much since I just have a different interpretation of a franchise I love than you do, and you seem to think I'm attacking the integrity of it somehow by not conforming to your beliefs. Are you an SJW? You're acting like the worst traits the right-wingers label onto them. I'm going through an enormous amount of stress in my life, and you don't even care about that, you just keep nagging me for a debate because YOU CANNOT LET THIS REST AND YOU WANT THE LAST WORD. You don't care another human being is suffering and wants to die. That the world is just too painful to exist in anymore. All you care about is your precious... UGH!

You mean you'll try to 'counter' it, but only expose more of your ignorance. I'll be waiting to tear your pathetic arguments to shreds again!

Idiot.

[clearspira]

Wow, this has escalated since I last looked at this. So, Mr GodGoku, it is obvious by your name that you are a bit of a fanboy lets say. Nothing wrong with that, i've proven that I am to classic Star Trek I expect. But it is blinding you. Especially thanks to teaming up both Marvel and DC you have just teamed up Reed Richards and Batman, two men famous for going up against godlike enemies and wiping the floor with them using their extreme cunning.

In an in-canon comic, this fight is ending with everyone else holding Goku down whilst Reed comes in with the ultimate nullifier, or a gun that opens the phantom or negative zone, or he will go off and mimic the infinity gems somehow. Goku finished, story over. This is not brawn vs brawn where Goku would perhaps win, this is brawn vs brawn AND brains. Huge brains very accustomed to this kind of fight backed up by muscle that COMBINED is greater than Goku. Its not happening, get over it.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Since when did Yuka start using quotes.

[Yukaphile]

@clearspira My friend, you're wasting your time. He's a fanboy like you said. And he has a pathological hatred of me because he thinks I'm a DBZ downplayer. Been nagging me to debate despite how I left all the times I was in pain and not doing so well emotionally. He doesn't fucking care. He only cares about defending his pet characters and how they beat EVERYONE in fiction. He's a... very unkind word.

@BridgeConsoleMasher We had a debate in another thread, and I was addressing his points, he demanded I use quotes, I said he should be smart enough to figure out what I was talking about, he didn't listen, so I quit the debate. He kept insisting I come back to it. I honestly remember very little of that debate, that's how much I stopped caring, but it's clear my views bother this fanboy deeply. So he's just looking to challenge me or insult me. He doesn't care about me. At all. I get the feeling others here have more legit reasons to dislike me, like Madner Kami, than he does. And others like me, despite my flaws. This guy? No. He's just... ugh.

[Madner Kami]

Well, it seems clear to me that Dragon Ball character-powers are as well definable as a pudding nailed to the wall. My suggestion is to stop argueing with what can't be nailed down and this discussion nicely showed why I stopped bothering with Dragon Ball. Also, keep using quotes, it makes you much more readable.

[Steve]

Yuka, why do you care what he thinks? If he's harassing you, report him and we'll deal with it. (Indeed I've already hit him with a warning for the slur on page 1). Otherwise I don't see a point in getting wound up on this issue.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Plus it looks like I have him stumped with Wolverine.

[SSJGodGoku]

I could go over the many ways power scaling was inconsistent in the Buu Saga and GT, and then in DBS it got even worse, but I'm not going to because it's pointless if you're just going to insult me. Power scalers, people like SethTheProgrammer who make this their hobby and absolutely abhor the disrespect Z gets from downplayers (who, btw, flat-out admitted Goku doesn't solo Marvel or DC, same as SSJRyu1 and Chuck the Cyber Cuck), have had a nightmare in trying to pinpoint precise levels of power. TheSaiyan17 has talked about this pretty in-depth.

Nice appeal to authority.

If you're just going to call me an idiot, then why even debate me since it's clear you hate me because you think I'm out to personally attack DBZ or something. More like your cherished fanboy fantasy of DBZ. If this is how it is going to be, then stop nagging me or I will report you.

Report me for what? All I did was explain that you got your info completely wrong in regards to Toriyama's involvement in the various parts of the franchise.

He said he's "moved to a place" that is "far beyond your Time-Skip now." What is that? What does it even mean?

It means he is going so fast that even time itself can't keep up with him.

It implies he's either outsped the Time-Skip, or he's become immune to it through some kind of new godly hax. Why is that so hard to believe? It's fiction, bruh. Anything can happen. My point about power scaling is that given Goku's on-screen feats in Episode 12, a lot of people had calced this from very strong galaxy tier to high universal depending on who you ask. But now Goku's gotten a lot stronger since DBS began, how does that translate to actual DC in correlation with power levels? With each new jump, is he becoming multiversal like some DBZ highballers think he is? Zeno-sama is multiversal. Even Beerus is macroversal (which is the contained size of 2.5 universes), and Goku... might have surpassed him? Maybe. But it hasn't been confirmed yet, and so far, obviously he has not. So how does Beerus scale to the Episode 12 feat and the "castle" comment? If you abuse power scaling this way, you'd have Beerus calced to blow up 2,000 universes, when you need DAMN good evidence to ever claim he can do that. Even Omni-King's limit was 18 universes.

He was never stated to have a limit. Beerus fired an attack in episode 13 that could have wiped out not only the mortal universe but the Other World as well, so that's equivalent to at least two universes. Jiren and Goku are so far beyond that that when they powered up in the ToP, it shook the entire World of Void, which is infinite in size. So they have the power to destroy infinite universes, and that's not even at their maximum power.

No - YOU are wanking Jiren. A being transcendent of time has complete mastery over it, can manipulate it to his whims, can play with it like a child molding putty, and move through it as freely as we move through air. A truly "transcendent" being is one who could move through time, stop it, start it up again, influence portions of it to run differently, fling people across history, a billion years into the past, 100,000 years into the future, and time travel, and be resistant to timeline changes. Jiren has not shown any ability to do these things past resisting a time-stop. It's impressive, but hardly true "transcendance." Others in fiction, such as the Q I'd listed, are far superior in their mastery over space-time. Google "transcendant." See what it means.

Bullshit. Being immune to a power doesn't necessitate that you have it. Jiren is a martial artist. He would obviously fight with martial arts.

AGAIN... I will repeat... you are slapping him with a no-limits fallacy. Because he was shown to resist a specific kind of time manipulation, freezing time, you think it means he can thus resist all kinds of time manipulation, when again, to prove that's the case, you need FEATS, not statements.

It's not a fallacy, it's a fact. It was directly stated that time itself means nothing to his power. You can't dispute this. This is what I mean by calling you a downplayer. You are outright ignoring canon statements.

It's like claiming because you can resist most of the effects of being slapped in the face, you can survive the full kinetic impact of a boulder falling on you. I WILL REPEAT. So far he's shown he can resist time-stop. It does not mean he can resist it if some omnipotent being flung him 100,000,000 years into the past, or someone managed to change the timeline, that he could resist its effects.

Sure it does. We know that only a Hakai from a God of Destruction can actually change the timeline, but Jiren is beyond the power of Hakai energy.

It's worth noting the DBS multiverse, despite being 12 universal "bubbles" is still treated as a singular space-time, with few exceptions, moving forward in all 12 "bubbles" at the same rate of speed. And he's shown very limited time hax resistance. To claim if you put him in another universe against beings with the kind of mastery over time that predates the universe itself in some cases, he could resist their attacks, simply based on how he performed in his universe, is mistaken. You need FEATS. Which he DOES NOT HAVE. Boy, you love your NLFs, don't you?

It's explicitly stated that his power is beyond time. Time related abilities are meaningless to him. You can deny this all you want but that won't change the facts.

No, you're failing to understand what I'm trying to say here. And you're wanking DBS. Again. As usual.

By believing direct statements?

Remember the Dark Soul? It swallowed them up, and contains a void within its stomach where it's chomped up the ruins of human buildings. It contains a dimension within itself. That's TARDIS level of complexity in terms of spatial and temporal manipulation. There is the HTC, of course, but that's why I said "few exceptions." Also, Buu and Gotenks powered up so much it broke space-time. Hooray. Some beings can do that with a blink of their non-corporal higher-dimensional eye. There's the Null Realm, of course, but... where is it located? They were never explicit. Again, this is what I was talking about, how DBZ tends to try and stay more simplistic. Null Realm is said to have no "time or space in it." How does that even work? I get they wanna include better feats for debaters, but... the thing is, people who crafted Star Trek and Doctor Who and The Culture and Animorphs and so on weren't even thinking about that, but they did have at least a little passing understanding with trying to include as much real or pseudo-realistic science or science-fiction as they could into their setting. We don't get that in a shonen anime meant for kids, and it sucks, because I wish we did. I'd love to see Tier 1 DBZ characters, but it's just a dream. It's never going to happen.

The World of Void is an infinitely-sized dimension, and Jiren and Goku both shook it when powering up and not even to their strongest forms.

Well, of course. The Post-Crisis era depowered the heroes, to make them less bullshit plot devices and more relatable characters.

So then you admit Goku beats him.

You know, whatever, I'm just gonna concede to you on this, that Goku could beat Post-Crisis Flash. Because I never wanted to continue this debate. I never even gave it more than a passing thought, but you just kept coming back to nag me, even though I blocked you. And you hate me so much just because you don't agree with me, because I have a different interpretation than you do regarding your beloved pet franchise. I love DBZ, don't get me wrong, but I also refuse to believe they could solo all of fiction. I won't behave like a Saitama fanboy. And you are. You're being a fanboy. Like with your "transcends time" statements that ignores what I'm trying to tell you.

You mean the statement that was explicitly made in the show itself? Wow, I'm actually believing what the canon material says. That's so unreasonable.

I think I heard that too. Very well then, I'll concede here as well.

Good, now just concede everything else too.

:: crickets chirping ::

I have never played those at ALL. I don't understand what you're talking about.

And yet you mentioned Xenoverse in your last post...

But no, Xeno Goku still doesn't solo fiction when there's so many other characters and cosmic entities out there that would utterly annihilate him.

I'm only talking about DC and Marvel here.

Also, maybe you should try and address my points regarding DBS Goku vs. the Pre-Crisis era, rather than just going and handpicking some of Goku's more bullshit forms that probably would win (I say probably because again, I haven't played those, so I can't debate them). You're being petulant and childish and all this because you think I'm a downplayer. It also suggests if you have to resort to that you know he'd lose.

I only brought that up because you were mixing and matching feats and stuff from different continuities, and when I called you on it, you said there was no problem with it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Cite your sources for DC and Marvel, because no, you don't strike me as a DC and Marvel fan.

Funny because I know more about them than you do.

https://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Multivers ... _Timelines

You're just claiming you create parallel timelines because it's what you feel it should be. I've watched Star Trek numerous times and can tell you Star Trek has the whole "change history" aspect to it as well.

Nope.

https://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate_timeline

Have Q grab Superman and Goku and set them in the Star Trek universe, and Superman could just time-travel and escape, or kill him as a baby,

Goku existed as a baby in the Star Trek universe?

but then this brushes up against the problem in that you're imposing the multiversal structure of DBS onto other franchises, when that is not so. Hell, I suspect I'll see even more of this as I progress through Doctor Who. And I will tell you that I think the Doctor with prep time could CRUSH Goku, as his tech is transcendent of time, how the Time Lords wrote the laws of probability in the universe (at least from my reading, again, barely started Who), and from everything I hear, they were wiping out entire timelines and galaxies being erased and restored in an instant. The Doctor could go back in time and kill Goku as a baby.

Which, once again, would do nothing to affect the present Goku, even if you ignore the alternate timeline thing, because Goku's ki is stronger than Jiren's who is already beyond time.

I've already proven how timelines change in Star Trek. The colony in DS9 vanished. A future Molly O'Brien vanished. All from timeline changes.

Which is why I said 'except in special circumstances'.

You're having Goku fight DC and Marvel in his universe, because of course, then he has a home field advantage. But you said changing the timeline required "special circumstances." Well then, please tell me, oh good and noble DC and Marvel fan, what those special circumstances were, hmm? Bedazzle me with your knowledge. I think it depends on the universe you set this in. Period.

Like you said, Whis' temporal do-over ability doesn't create an alternate timeline. But it doesn't matter if circumstances like that exist when you're dealing with a character on or above suppressed Jiren's level. They are immune to time manipulation.

Yeah, I can accept that, but as a DBZ fan, I get holy irritated in seeing the bullshit plot contrivances every time Goku lets his guard down in DBS. This only happened once in Z, when that rock hit him and rocked (HA!) his whole world.

Actually that was filler. And in Z it was a well-attested phenomenon actually (Vegeta lowered his defenses so Krillin could nearly kill him so he could get a zenkai, Vegeta pretended to stop fighting so Goku let his guard down so Vegeta could KO him with one punch in the Buu saga, etc.)

Other than that, Z presented it far better. Goku wasn't getting scratched by bullets. He wasn't getting hit with lasers. Krillin got scratched by a bullet. It's getting old. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Ultra Instinct put a huge strain on Goku's body? And he didn't use it in the Broly movie. Wish he had. Hope he does again and becomes Casual Ultra Instinct like Whis. I'd love that.

What's your point? MUI Goku is the strongest version of Goku (excluding all of the extra game stuff) and that's the one I'm using.

I already have. You're not listening to me.

No, all you've done is bitched about it and said it can't possibly mean what was directly stated, because you don't like it.

Don't you dare take that patronizing attitude with me! AND DON'T YOU DARE PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I said DC and Marvel and Star Trek and other franchises that are sci-fi put more emphasis on science than DBS does, which is more fantasy/adventure. If you're going to lie about me, then this debate is OVER.

I accept your concession.

TOAA scales to characters who scale to others who have feats. The cosmic abstracts.

Then so does Zalama.

And you'll bring up how once again "they lose to weak characters!" Clearly that's a low-end showing that another writer felt would look cool or for plot reasons. It should be disregarded.

Excuses, excuses. You can't ignore evidence just because you don't like it. It's canon, it happened, get over it.

Because if you do I'll retort with GOKU GETS OWNED BY LASERS. The fact it has a good excuse doesn't mean it's not stupid. It just presents the DBZ fighters as huge glass cannons, with the exceptions of the DBS gods.

There is a perfectly good explanation for that, and I've already explained why it doesn't apply here.

DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT A NO-LIMITS FALLACY IS, BOY? Coming from the same numb nut who sneered "there are no true omnipotents in fiction." That is how you're treating Super Shenron. If I wished for Super Shenron to make Vados fall in love with me, it could do it? This should be rich.

If you were in the DBU and you had gathered the Super Dragonballs and could speak the right language, I don't see why not.

Obviously they can't grant logically impossible wishes (like 'I wish 2+2 was equal to 5' or 'I wish you wouldn't grant this wish') but other than that anything is up for grabs.

Well, I'd love to see Zamasu come back, but that's unlikely. AND NO. To claim the history leading up to that ceased to exist is PURE THEORY!

Wrong. In the manga, when Zeno erases the timeline, we clearly see the time ring for that timeline (which are created for each timeline and unique to them) break, meaning the timeline itself was erased.

As I said earlier, the DBS multiverse is twelve universal "bubbles" that move forward along the same spatial plane. If Zeno-sama were to erase them, their motion through time would come to a stop, but only at the moment he wiped them out. Everything preceding that would still exist if you could travel back to it. There is actually a term for this somewhere, I think on TV Tropes.

Whenever a new timeline is created, a new time ring appears. So when a time ring disappears, what do you think that means?

And no, he wished to be "immortal," though admittedly that word is a bit vague.

Immortal - lacking mortality. Incapable of dying. Not incapable of being erased.

I read it was Thanos ultimately self-sabotaging him that led to his downfall. And that Living Tribunal shut the Gauntlet down.

This is hilarious. You say I don't know Marvel and DC but then all of your arguments are just 'I've read about this' or 'I've heard about this', no firsthand experience at all.

The Tribunal thing was way later, and Thanos was totally not expecting Death to ignore him. Try reading the actual comics maybe.

A statement from Shin, which let's remember, hasn't had the best track record at being accurate. Refer to what I wrote about about what a truly "transcendant" being is. Jiren is not transcendant if the fourth dimension is not like air to him.

It wasn't just him, Marcarita and the Kaioshin of Universe 11 confirmed it right afterwards.

You don't set the terms by which I debate, boy. Especially since you dragged me into this out of your pathological need to get the last word in. I don't understand why you hate me so much since I just have a different interpretation of a franchise I love than you do, and you seem to think I'm attacking the integrity of it somehow by not conforming to your beliefs. Are you an SJW? You're acting like the worst traits the right-wingers label onto them. I'm going through an enormous amount of stress in my life, and you don't even care about that, you just keep nagging me for a debate because YOU CANNOT LET THIS REST AND YOU WANT THE LAST WORD. You don't care another human being is suffering and wants to die. That the world is just too painful to exist in anymore. All you care about is your precious... UGH!

Get over yourself. All I said was that you can't do vs. debating if you don't do powerscaling. If you want to stop, then just concede all of your points then. Shouldn't be too difficult if you really care as little as you claim.

Idiot.

Yes, you are!