Chuck's thoughts on KOTOR 2, review, & Kreia?

[Yukaphile]

Tbf, the Mandalorian Wars and the Clone Wars were four thousand years apart. I guess they might have learned their lesson from the Mandalorian Wars, but failed to learn when it comes to expanding the freedoms of individual Jedi, and not adherence to their interpretation of what is in line with what "the Force wants," which they will tell you, no one is certain, so it's pure theory, based on their beliefs. There is no reason Nejaa Halcyon should have kept his marriage secret, because unlike Anakin, he wasn't so attached he couldn't let go, I feel. If you're in love, you should be able to loudly declare it to the whole world.

And I think we never saw the Mandalorians at their prime. They were being manipulated by the Sith Empire, heavily implied, so it's very probable they were fighting in such a fierce manner you couldn't conceive of it. Worlds were literally left barren in their wake. We're probably taking Galactic Empire scale industrialization, with weapons like Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers that could perform their equivalent of a Base Delta Zero.

The Jedi don't have an intelligence service. They're an order of warrior monks in service to the Senate.

[Wargriffin]

Its hilarious every other large scale galactic body is capable of creating a competent military and military infrastructure while the republic seems to always dismantle and demilitarize once the conflict is over, Based on the statements of Kotor the Great Sith War wasn't even 40 years old when the Mando war started up and proper


The Republic due to the sheer amount of attacks should have one of the most refined harden armies in the Galaxy that picking a fight with it is paramount to suicide.

[Yukaphile]

I don't think they ever demilitarized. I just think the Mandalorians had outside help, plus they were thriving off the challenge of war and battle. And remember the Mandalorians recruited slaves or willing volunteers. Given what we saw of the Mandalorian camp in KOTOR 2, I wouldn't have minded joining their ranks. They reminded me of those old WWI era soldiers. Would honorably shoot at each other, had limits to their engagement, then go plop down and shoot back a beer with one another an hour later, as if nothing had happened. Like the Duras drinking with Gowron's soldiers in "Redemption."

[TrueMetis]

I get seriously mixed messages from you, one minute you're frothing at the mouth about the crimes committed by various armies, Next you're talking about happily joining a group that had no problem nearly wiping out entire species.

[Wargriffin]

Its equally weird cause Kriea pretty much MOCKS the shit out of Mando culture, listing even the Sith's brutality is in principle is about making you strong, The Mandos pick on the weak cause they can get away with it and claim it was "honorable"

[Yukaphile]

Wait, where did she do that? Cite specific examples, please. I know KOTOR 2 dialogue like the back of my hand, and I don't recall that. The only instance I can remember is when she was discussing how bitter their defeat was before setting Mandalore up with the bait of offering what he wanted to know - if he would keep the Exile safe. That wasn't mocking them so much as shoving the truth in his face, which you know, they did lose, badly. And it was sorta meta-commentary on Jango Fett. Then she went on to list how... well, here.

"Perhaps there will be no new age, Mandalore, no great Mandalorian crusade. Perhaps your people fought their last battle at Malachor V, and you have been dying ever since, a quiet death that will last centuries. And perhaps all that remains will be what I see before me: a man, wounded by a Jedi, encased in a Mandalorian shell, haunted by the thought of being the last of the Mandalorians."

"I know many things, and I can answer the question that burns within your shell, Mandalore. But there is a price - you must keep the one I travel with safe. She is important to me - more important than anything. Show the same loyalty you have shown in the past, Mandalore. If there is a Mandalorian crusade, let it be for something that will carry your people's memory into the future, so when there are no more Mandalorians, at least their honor will remain. The one I travel with has walked your same path - and I ask that when the end comes, that you remember that kinship, even if it seems there is nothing else left."

[Wargriffin]

She pretty much Back sasses Canderous ever time he tries to go into a full on the Mando way of life was glorious

Canderous: "Don't pretend to understand us – we Mandalorians are a breed apart."
Kreia: "If by 'apart' you mean scattered, broken, and lost, then yes, you are correct."

[Yukaphile]

Yes, that. I take it to mean she's a very well-written character full of contradictory complexities, like most real life people are. And I guess that's what makes her so polarizing. People latch onto the things they see in her - what they most hate or like. I personally love the deconstruction of the sometimes overly simplistic mindset behind Star Wars, and I love the wisdom she spouts that is very true. Some people, I think, get so turned off by her "help no one" approach and her lies they just ignore the times she has a point. People wish they had the option to "challenge" her in the game, though... they also ignore the fact you CAN challenge her. You just lose influence. Do you mean challenge her in such a way to gain influence? Because remember her little headspace. She's doing all of this for the Exile. It's the one thing she remains the most consistent on. She wants Mandalore to watch out for her. She breaks Hanharr into her service, and one edict is NOT to harm the Exile. She even has Atton conscripted to work for her in order to safeguard the Exile. Is it manipulative? Yes. But ultimately it's all to help the Exile grow stronger through conflict, to prove to the Council her teachings can be validated without a student falling to the dark side, and in the end, to see if her beliefs ring true - if the Force is to die, or if the Exile is to surpass her be as great as she hopes. The subtext is all there. Problem is I think it's open to other interpretations, and... people see other subtext that's not so nice. But it is true to say Kreia is neither a Jedi nor a Sith. When she was with the order, she had a very grey perspective, being part Echani herself, and then when the Council cast her out, blamed her for Revan's fall, she turned to the Sith, but then they betrayed her, and so she realized the flaws of the Sith too. She will point out the flaws of the Sith numerous times, like when you're examining the Sith temples on Korriban. Kreia is, as she says, holding "pieces of both." And there are times when she actually speaks a truth. It's up to you to determine when that is, depending on your own beliefs. As I've said, my take on her "betray your beliefs" thing is to see whether it can withstand the challenge of being tested. If it can, it's worthy to survive. If not... well, you need to adapt. That's how I see it.

[Nealithi]

Yes, that. I take it to mean she's a very well-written character full of contradictory complexities, like most real life people are. And I guess that's what makes her so polarizing. People latch onto the things they see in her - what they most hate or like. I personally love the deconstruction of the sometimes overly simplistic mindset behind Star Wars, and I love the wisdom she spouts that is very true. Some people, I think, get so turned off by her "help no one" approach and her lies they just ignore the times she has a point. People wish they had the option to "challenge" her in the game, though... they also ignore the fact you CAN challenge her. You just lose influence. Do you mean challenge her in such a way to gain influence? Because remember her little headspace. She's doing all of this for the Exile. It's the one thing she remains the most consistent on. She wants Mandalore to watch out for her. She breaks Hanharr into her service, and one edict is NOT to harm the Exile. She even has Atton conscripted to work for her in order to safeguard the Exile. Is it manipulative? Yes. But ultimately it's all to help the Exile grow stronger through conflict, to prove to the Council her teachings can be validated without a student falling to the dark side, and in the end, to see if her beliefs ring true - if the Force is to die, or if the Exile is to surpass her be as great as she hopes. The subtext is all there. Problem is I think it's open to other interpretations, and... people see other subtext that's not so nice. But it is true to say Kreia is neither a Jedi nor a Sith. When she was with the order, she had a very grey perspective, being part Echani herself, and then when the Council cast her out, blamed her for Revan's fall, she turned to the Sith, but then they betrayed her, and so she realized the flaws of the Sith too. She will point out the flaws of the Sith numerous times, like when you're examining the Sith temples on Korriban. Kreia is, as she says, holding "pieces of both." And there are times when she actually speaks a truth. It's up to you to determine when that is, depending on your own beliefs. As I've said, my take on her "betray your beliefs" thing is to see whether it can withstand the challenge of being tested. If it can, it's worthy to survive. If not... well, you need to adapt. That's how I see it.

I will be the first person to admit I hated the 'lesson' when you arrived on Nar Shaddaa. In that it seems her goal is to empower you to do nothing. My disappointment probably stems from the game being rushed. Every jedi master asks you for help and you give it and cut a path of destruction through all opponents at their call. Then there is a call to face them and they suddenly want to cut you off from the force. . . (They can do that? Then why kill sith?) If you end them Kreia is disappointed in you. Let them Kreia is disappointed in you, and kills them herself. . . Wait a minute if killing them is the wrong answer why is it fine if she does it? That is probably bad writing so they can just finish things. Because the game felt like it rushed to the next combat stages after that. But it added to her odd sense of there is no right or wrong only Kreia.

[Wargriffin]

Except Kriea is pretty much a Sith in her thinking and actions seeing that its Darwinistic by your own admission, everything is about conflict and She still maintains the stance that you should be strong instead of weak and if you choose to be weak you ain't worth her pity. Hell she constantly puts everybody else lives below the exile and is willing to sacrifice population centers for one person.

and Saying she rejected the Sith cause they betrayed when She herself says Betrayal is fundamental part of the Sith either makes her Hypocritical 'wouldn't be the first time' or underlines her true motivations perfectly clear..

She's petty and vindictive... and all of this is punctuated of her getting Even with the universe, Hell thats why She kills the Jedi no matter what and outright admits she used you to get back at her treacherous pupils

Kriea is like alot of deconstructive characters the moment you see through all the overly intellectual jargon that makes them "sound" deep, You see them for what they actually are. They go on and on about how life is open to interpretation but its just general BS to justify the amoral crap they do to other people all while acting enlightened and holier then thou. Peel the layers away and what do you have at the core.


Thats Why I say you can never beat Kriea in this game cause She always at most gets the thing she craves, Vengeance of the people who wronged her 'The Jedi order of the Old Republic are dead and her treacherous off shot of the Sith are gone for failing in her eyes'the only thing you have control on is if you have respect for her or not so its basically giving her 2 out 3 goals met or 3 out 3 goals met

Granted ToR then walks this back and has a Jedi Order more properly demonstrative of a a several thousand year old religion... You're gonna have different lines of thought... a whole lot of different lines of thought to the point its almost contradictory!

Also Why would you want to join the Mandos Yuka, when they are pretty much the UR example of Space vikings who pillage, rape, and murder for the fun of it. Hell Canderous pretty much admits to shit you've frothed at the mouth about when it comes to blowing up Civilian targets


The Mandos entire warrior culture can be summed up in one joke

"But, why? Why would Mars want to attack the puny, insignificant forces of Earth?

" Because we'd win!"