My idea for a revised version of The Last Jedi

[Nealithi]

Well, in my proposed alternate take, I also suggested a misunderstanding. I could see Luke turning into someone who's felt the Force wasn't what his mentors told him it was, and that the way of the Jedi wasn't for him after all, with the decades to come, but the murdering Kylo Ren thing is just... yeah. It could be Luke had had a dream about Kylo Ren turning to the dark side, and he knew the Jedi's past actions doomed them, so here, he might be thinking about Vader, especially given that Kylo Ren is looking for new answers to stabilize the galaxy, and coming to counsel Ben, and because of something his father or mother or Luke had said that he'd overheard, he thinks he's coming to kill him because he's worried he's turning into another Vader. So he just embraces that path. Luke could then realize it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, which doomed his father, and make him wonder what's the point of knowing the future if you can't change it? Of having power if you can't help people? It would help if around this time there had been mistrust growing around Force-sensitives. Like if perhaps revealing that Vader was Anakin all along damaged the Jedi's credibility. They wanted to be an honest government, so... people began losing faith in him, and Kylo stood by him, hence why he'd feel inclined to wanna embrace Vader's path, keeping order through rigid discipline and terror rather than letting people decide for themselves if they wanna do the wrong thing. If it were a well-done story, the misunderstanding could tie into Snoke somehow, and admittedly, I'm NOT following this movie trilogy at all, but... well, yeah. How would you guys go about setting up from this hypothetical movie I'm constructing in Last Jedi's place?

EDIT: Just saw your reply. I'm trying to see if I can make Last Jedi into something workable.

I think the problem is Kriea hated the force and wanted it dead. But the force is made by all living things. The only way to kill the force is to wipe out all life. Luke in the film did have a decent motivation for not continuing his school. The force as it is tries to be neutral and balanced. But when a sith pulls in more power and holds it. Then there is an imbalance and the force flows energy into another to counter the swell made else where. So you have a 'fated' individual to counter. Remove the sith and the jedi and maybe the force can go to rest and the cycle of destruction between the two orders will cease.

[Yukaphile]

I don't buy the "Sith is a cancer" argument. If the Force is generated by living beings, we have darkness all our own that is independent of the Sith. Evils and sins that is not controlled by an otherworldly entity. Hell, this could tie even more into my proposed take. Luke loses faith in the Force because people are so damned awful, and they contribute that into the Force, corrupting it of their own free will with no influence of the Sith. And the prequels don't bear this out, which speak of it as a legit deity that controls them with a will of its own.

[Jonathan101]

In TCW microseries Dooku floats to the ground using the Force.

I don't personally think that what Leia did breaks any in-universe rules or anything; I just think that it's cheesy at Hell.

And yes, I do stand by that even if the subversions were done well, they still would have angered a lot of people, mostly because there are people who love this movie and think that the subversions WERE done well.

[Nealithi]

I don't buy the "Sith is a cancer" argument. If the Force is generated by living beings, we have darkness all our own that is independent of the Sith. Evils and sins that is not controlled by an otherworldly entity. Hell, this could tie even more into my proposed take. Luke loses faith in the Force because people are so damned awful, and they contribute that into the Force, corrupting it of their own free will with no influence of the Sith. And the prequels don't bear this out, which speak of it as a legit deity that controls them with a will of its own.

I think your reply was meant for me. If not I apologize in advance.
I did not say the sith are/were a cancer. The sith methods with the force can be just as valid as the jedi. The issue with the sith is they usually endup petty and abusive for the sake of being abusive. My favourite legends character is actually the light side sith sorcerer from ToR. Where you can be a good person but with feelings.
My statement from the movie, as I saw it, was that the two religions create imbalance. Sith draws too much power, the force flows to empower an opposite. I should have mentioned the Luke pointed out that if you create too much 'light' the force pools to make an equal 'dark'. The force is trying to balance the scales. The destiny aspect comes in when it creates a champion to balance the opposing side. Remove both unbalanced 'sides' and the force should 'heal' and smooth out.

[Jonathan101]

George Lucas said that the Sith are the imbalance, and the Jedi are balanced.

The Sith are not just evil, they are extraordinary evil that purposely cause intergalactic wars and establish brutal authoritarian empires all for their own selfish gain, because of the power of the Dark Side that they draw upon.

The fact that most people in the galaxy have some darkness or evil in their hearts is irrelevant, because the difference is that the Sith embrace it and, with the power of the Dark Side at their command, take it to a completely different level than most normal people are capable of, becoming agents of it whether they realise this or not.

[Winter]

If there was only one thing I could change about TLJ it would be to have the characters acknowledge that Trauma Isn't something you can just brush off. Case in point, Han's death is hardly brought up by any of the characters and when it is brought up the scene almost immediately cuts to something else and then it's never talked about again. Luke only asks where Han is once, I don't think Leia even says his name, Chewie spends most of the movie dealing with the Progs and Rey forgives Ren for killing him after two or three Force Chats after he gives his Freudian Excuse.

This isn't like Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru in A New Hope who weren't treated as a big deal even in the Prequels this is one of the Original heroes of the Original Trilogy and one of the most iconic characters in all of pop culture. And yet most of the cast don't seem to even care that Han is dead and it honestly feels like the film is trying to pretend his death didn't even happen.

Another example of this film just choosing to ignore trauma is what happens with Finn, or rather what Doesn't happen with Finn. At the end of TFA Finn gets his back cut up which puts him into a coma meaning he has no way of knowing what happens to his best friend and as soon as he wakes up he finds that not only is she not here but has left altogether. This is a perfect set up for a great character arc as Finn could show to be really traumatized by what happened to him at the end of Awakens and has now come to fear the First Order and Kylo Ren even more then he did at the start of the series as nearly dying will sometimes do that to you. He could also hold a bit of resentment against Rey for just leaving him feeling that he was abandoned by someone he sees as his closets friend when he might have needed her.

And I Know this can lead to a good if not great character arc because this is exactly what happened in RWBY with Yang in Volumes 4 and 5. Spoilers for those who haven't seen the series but at the end of Vol. 3 Yang got her arm cut off by Blake's ex-partner/abusive ex-boyfriend which put her into a coma for a few days and soon after waking up she found that Blake, someone who is a close friend of hers and maybe even has romantic feelings for, just left her without ever saying a word.

This has stuck with Yang for Volumes 4 through 6 even when Blake did return you can tell that while Yang does love her she is still hurt by Blake leaving her but is willing to work past that. And Yang is still suffering some serious PTSD as she has come to fear Adam after what he did to her and while she has now faced him and proven that she can stand up to him she is still scared of him.

This is compelling and drama and character development and has helped flesh out Yang's character by acknowledging that what happened to her at the end of Vol. 3. Just to help show what I mean here's Finn's first scene in TLJ.


youtu.be/5y2D-o2RkSE

And now here's Yang's first scene in Vol. 4.


youtu.be/gK1qbLnsBo0

Finn's scene is treated as a joke and I don't think that he ever even says Ren's name or shows that what happened at the end of TFA had any effect on him at all. Yang's scene shows how even though she is now out of bed and, while not shown here, gets a new robotic arm and yet she can't bring her self to put it on as she is still dealing with the trauma of what happened to her. She can't even bring herself to smile and just spends most of her time doing basic chores around the house and even then she still gets flashes about what happened to her at the end of Vol. 3.

For the record, people who have suffered similar trauma to Yang's praised Yang's arc for being really realistic as while Yang does start smiling and getting back into the fight she's still not 100% and likely never will be. Finn's arc, doesn't even give you an idea as to why he was in a coma and he acts as if nothing bad ever happened to him at the end of TFA.

The only person to be suffering any real trauma from their past actions is Luke after he contemplated killing his nephew in his sleep because "drama" and even he seems to get over that rather quickly soon after we meet him.

And as for the other characters, Poe gets his whole squad killed and never shows ANY regret in that choice, Rose loses her sister and yet seems to get more attached to Finn and barely talks about her sister and Ren kills or tries to kill every family member he has and yet seems more upset that Rey doesn't have a crush on him anymore.

One of the issues with TDST is that for all it's proclamations for taking risks it really hasn't taken any risks as it has so far refused to do anything with any of it's ideas. So Rey's parents were nobodies, she doesn't seem to care as the next time we see her she's shooting tie-fighters and while acting like she doesn't have a care in the world. Finn, Poe and Rose get most of the Resistance killed and yet are the ones leading the charge and also seem to be having the time of their lives while trying to save the rest of the Resistance from getting killed which, again, is only in danger because of what they did.

Ren refusing to kill his mother and just letting the other tie-fighters take the shot instead, never even mentioned by anyone after that moment. And Leia losing her husband, her brother to her son and losing most of the Resistance along with learning that the galaxy itself has given up and is just going to let the First Order take over without a fight? She just acts as if nothing has ever gone wrong and even makes a few jokes in the last few minutes of the film.

RWBY addresses abusive relationships, PTSD, forced amputation, loss of loved ones and uses that to further the development of other characters while still being able to find a bit of humor and fun to help keep things from getting to dark. TLJ refuses to acknowledge that anything bad ever happened and instead makes jokes at every possible opportunity.

And it's not like Star Wars has ignored trauma for characters before. Obi-Wan showing that he regrets/blames himself for his part in letting Anakin fall to the Dark Side, Yoda realizing that he will not be able to teach Luke everything, Han and Leia admitting that they love each other just when the two are forced apart and Luke learning the truth about who his father really is ALL had long lasting impact on the characters.

Over with the Prequels, Anakin losing his mother, both as a kid and later watching her die in his arms just as it looked like he was about to save her, Obi-Wan seeing how far his friend had fallen, Yoda feeling the deaths of thousands of Jedi and Padme hearing her husband admitting to his crimes were NOT something the characters just brushed off.

And finally, over on The Thrawn Trilogy Everything that happens to Mara sticks with her throughout the Trilogy and a lot of that was either traumatic or humiliating which is what makes her victories all the more satisfying.

But with TDST, nothing is treated as if it is a big deal and as such it feels hollow to a lot of people, myself included, and I think this is going to hurt the series in the long run as it's pretty much the same as Voyager hitting the reset button every time something went wrong or any of the characters started to show ANY signs of developing with VERY few exceptions.

The Prequels, The Original Trilogy, The Thrawn Trilogy and RWBY are all willing to take chances and take advantage of the story opportunities that present themselves. TDST will almost always play it safe has, so far, bent over backwards to try and avoid taking chances with the characters or the series.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

George Lucas said that the Sith are the imbalance, and the Jedi are balanced.

The Sith are not just evil, they are extraordinary evil that purposely cause intergalactic wars and establish brutal authoritarian empires all for their own selfish gain, because of the power of the Dark Side that they draw upon.

The fact that most people in the galaxy have some darkness or evil in their hearts is irrelevant, because the difference is that the Sith embrace it and, with the power of the Dark Side at their command, take it to a completely different level than most normal people are capable of, becoming agents of it whether they realise this or not.

So you're saying the jedi are like centrist democrats while the sith are like republicans?

[G-Man]

In TCW microseries Dooku floats to the ground using the Force.

I don't personally think that what Leia did breaks any in-universe rules or anything; I just think that it's cheesy at Hell.

That's not my point. I'm not saying that flying through the vacuum of space is not a Jedi/Sith power. I'm saying that it is something rare enough that it has not happened before in the movies.

I'm saying that someone who can do that ought to have MAD FORCE SKILLZ. This should be a moment of awesome for Leia. Yet, no one brings it up again in the movie.

The problem with Leia's flying is not that it breaks any rules; it's not that it looks cheesy; it's that they do not do anything interesting with it.

Leia could have been saved by a droid instead. Or Leia could have been blown into the hallway and knocked out instead of being shot off into space. And it would not have changed the rest of the movie one iota.

They could have had Leia open the "backdoor" of the cave instead of Rey. Leia could have saved the day instead of Luke.

Instead, the entirety of Leia's Force mastery consists of "Whoa! Look at that awesome thing she did! It solved that one situation set up just so she could show her awesome powers. Now, let's never bring it up again."

And yes, I do stand by that even if the subversions were done well, they still would have angered a lot of people, mostly because there are people who love this movie and think that the subversions WERE done well.

I doubt that the people who do not like the movie think they were done well.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I was discussing the flaws of the Jedi in another thread, and I had this little niggler of an idea I needed to get off my chest. Rian Johnson wanted Luke to be bitter and turn on the Force, to be kind of like Kreia, an old hermit who's lost faith in everything. Okay then. I think I have a better take on that, and I want your guys' opinions.

As he rebuilt the New Republic, Luke had learned everything that led to the fall of the Jedi, not the propaganda the Emperor spewed, but the legitimate truth. And he felt heartbroken. He realized the Jedi Council's own flaws had doomed them, that they had become too complacent, too arrogant and self-assured, and that the Jedi Order paid the price. He began questioning everything Ben and Yoda had ever instructed him in. He shared all this with Kylo Ren, who began to grow increasingly displeased with the Jedi, wondering if perhaps they were not the right people to rule the galaxy, and thus, his obsession with Vader began, and how the galaxy had been so ordered when he was in charge, as they fight off wave after wave of petty border skirmishes and people keep dying left and right. Luke is getting very worried, so... well, you could keep the "tempted to murder him in his sleep thing," or make it a misunderstanding. And then with the fall of Kylo Ren, Luke comes to the conclusion the Force had set up the Jedi for slaughter with Order 66, and renounced the Force and all it stood for, thus he retired to the planet he appeared on within Last Jedi, and didn't care about Jedi, or Sith, or anything. He was tired of fighting. He felt he had done his part. Let Han and Leia carry out the rest. He was sick of it all. He wouldn't fight if the Force wasn't what his masters had taught him. Hell, you could even have Rey tell him Han had died, and that tempts him to come back to the fight. And as he dies, I could totally see Luke spitting out a, "I fight for my friends, not the Force!" line for the trailer.

Now admittedly, I haven't seen any of the new movies since 2015, but... what do you guys think of this rough outline? Would it have worked better than what we actually got in Last Jedi?

While it probably could be considered a bit of headcanon, a good amount of that is a reasonable deduction. I don't think it's that bad emphatically though.

[Draco Dracul]

In TCW microseries Dooku floats to the ground using the Force.

I don't personally think that what Leia did breaks any in-universe rules or anything; I just think that it's cheesy at Hell.

That's not my point. I'm not saying that flying through the vacuum of space is not a Jedi/Sith power. I'm saying that it is something rare enough that it has not happened before in the movies.

I'm saying that someone who can do that ought to have MAD FORCE SKILLZ. This should be a moment of awesome for Leia. Yet, no one brings it up again in the movie.

The problem with Leia's flying is not that it breaks any rules; it's not that it looks cheesy; it's that they do not do anything interesting with it.

Leia could have been saved by a droid instead. Or Leia could have been blown into the hallway and knocked out instead of being shot off into space. And it would not have changed the rest of the movie one iota.

They could have had Leia open the "backdoor" of the cave instead of Rey. Leia could have saved the day instead of Luke.

Instead, the entirety of Leia's Force mastery consists of "Whoa! Look at that awesome thing she did! It solved that one situation set up just so she could show her awesome powers. Now, let's never bring it up again."

And yes, I do stand by that even if the subversions were done well, they still would have angered a lot of people, mostly because there are people who love this movie and think that the subversions WERE done well.

I doubt that the people who do not like the movie think they were done well.

Every new power the movies have ever shown have been pulled out of no where, I mean the first use of telekinesis is done by someone who has never even seen it done before.