Just rewatched Indiana Jones and the last Crusade

[Wargriffin]

Elsa is at worst portrayed as a collaborator of the gun in your back kind but still ultimately sees the Grail as a Treasure to be collected

It kinda ties back to Indy's line from his class room

"Archeology is the search for facts, not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."

[Yukaphile]

THANK YOU.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

THANK YOU.

What'd I miss here?

Elsa is at worst portrayed as a collaborator of the gun in your back kind but still ultimately sees the Grail as a Treasure to be collected

It kinda ties back to Indy's line from his class room

"Archeology is the search for facts, not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."

I fail to see the connection.

[Yukaphile]

Tbh, I do too. But I agree with his characterization.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Tbh, I do too. But I agree with his characterization.

Only thing I might take away from it is that; Indy is of the mindset that these things belong in a museum contrary to collectors that want it for possession or trade. It's two different dynamics that might be able to construct an analogous pair. But I don't see how truth correlates to private possession or how fact compares to public display.

[Nessus]

I think Wargriffin means that Ilsa isn't interested in the grail as a symbol or a means to power, ideological or metaphysical ("truth"), but rather for its academic value as a historical artifact ("fact"). In this respect, at least, she would be like Indy, despite being allied with the nazis.

It's been a long time since I've seen the movie though, so I don't know if that assessment of her is accurate. That's just my between-the-lines parsing of Wargriffen's post.

It does occur to me however that an interesting inverse of this would be that IIRC Jones Sr. IS interested in the Grail for it's symbolic/metaphysical value (IIRC his obsession with it was religiously motivated, despite archaeology informing his methods). This sort of makes team Jones and team Nazi good/evil mirrors of one another. Each team is comprised of a younger, "fact" motivated seeker, backed by an older, "truth" motivated one.

Or in Lucas speak: "It's like poetry: it rhymes". Or, if you like: a subtler version of the "hero vs. evil twin" thing that Marvel so loves in their movies.

[Wargriffin]

I think Wargriffin means that Ilsa isn't interested in the grail as a symbol or a means to power, ideological or metaphysical ("truth"), but rather for its academic value as a historical artifact ("fact"). In this respect, at least, she would be like Indy, despite being allied with the nazis.

It's been a long time since I've seen the movie though, so I don't know if that assessment of her is accurate. That's just my between-the-lines parsing of Wargriffen's post.

It does occur to me however that an interesting inverse of this would be that IIRC Jones Sr. IS interested in the Grail for it's symbolic/metaphysical value (IIRC his obsession with it was religiously motivated, despite archaeology informing his methods). This sort of makes team Jones and team Nazi good/evil mirrors of one another. Each team is comprised of a younger, "fact" motivated seeker, backed by an older, "truth" motivated one.

Or in Lucas speak: "It's like poetry: it rhymes". Or, if you like: a subtler version of the "hero vs. evil twin" thing that Marvel so loves in their movies.

Basically replace Fact and Truth with Fact and Faith

multiple times in the movie, Indy tries to turn tail and run even suggesting letting the Nazis have the Cup

which gives rise to this little bit from Henry Sr

"The quest for the Grail is not archaeology. It's a race against evil! If it is captured by the Nazis, the armies of darkness will march all over the face of the earth!"

However the mirror bit is what your dead on about, Donovan and Henry Sr both believe in the grail but they have varying levels of commitment. Donovan is nowhere near as religious as Henry Sr and well Henry Sr later comes to realize his been too obsessed with the Legend to the point he truly has neglected his own son 'The Hard Fact he's been using his faith to cover up'

-granted this ruined by the fact that no... just like the Ark, God don't leave around easily abused super relics even if you go through the proper outfit and rituals.

To Indy the Cup is just his father's obsession another Trinket that drives a man mad... and Elsa sees it as a treasure to be found...

"Elsa never really believed in the grail. She thought she'd found a prize."

Indy when forced to take the trials to save his father has to complete three acts of spiritual awarness

Humility' the Penitent Man Kneels, most likely the way through the trap is to crawl on ones stomach 'the old way to show humilty' thus never activating the buzzsaws however Indy is more clued in by how the men have died, so in a way its not true act of humility but Indy getting by with his wits

Knowledge, Jehovah starts with an I! a reverent man will be brushed up on his knowledge of the word but again its less reverence and more Indy's just smart and his father had him learn this stuff repeatably.

and of course Faith is the last test... which Indy who has survived by wits, luck and fists has to surrender to the one thing the movies constantly have him wrestle with.

" Just believe, boy"

The one test he can't really fluke his way through


thats not to say Henry SR doesn't have his own arc... He goes through it much earlier though. The Tank scene when the very real possibility he just watched his son plummet to his death hits him

"I thought I'd lost you, boy!"

Note afterwards when Henry Sr is finally confronted with the Grail... his life's obsession he only gives it a passing moment before embracing his son and then ultimately chooses his son over it

and Donovan and Elsa are indeed mirrors to the Jones

Elsa despite everything she's seen... She still sees the cup as a prize and quickly disregards the Knight's warning which leads to her death, Even when its clear Indy is willing to forgive and save her if she'd just let the cup go. This is actually how Younger Indy use to be when he was a grave robber anything for the prize

Indy almost makes the same mistake 'for whatever reason makes sense to you, IE don't make Elsa's death in vain, to be so close only to let it slip away, let his Father's life goal disappear etc etc' and only relents when he realizes his Father cares more for him then the Cup.

Donovan is the weak link in this Dynamic but he still fulfills being Henry Sr's mirror

Donovan believes but ultimately his faith is paper thin... only really being interested in it for its supposed immortality granting
"Didn't I warn you, Doctor Jones, not to trust anybody ?"

Dies cause he puts his trust in Elsa, not very reverent is he.

[Yukaphile]

I think Elsa represents most people, sadly. They wouldn't have found something to tie into their spiritual beliefs, "merely a prize." I guess under the film's logic, we all deserve to plunge to our deaths? But then, I'm about as anti-religious as you can get. If there is a God, I'd wanna scream at him about his failures, why the world turned out so horrible, and how he can just so easily forgive the worst scum of humanity to let them into paradise? But that could be some people's propensity for easy forgiveness coming through. If I found the Grail, I think I'd destroy it, deny it to other people - unless I could gain enough wealth to do some good for enough people to make a difference. Contradictory, I know. But isn't that the human experience?

[Madner Kami]

Contradictory, I know. But isn't that the human experience?

That some "holier than thou"-nutjob comes along and ruins it for everyone, because he thinks he knows best, knows all the rights from all the wrongs and somehow can make everything better for his chosen people? Yes. Yes it is. Isn't it?

[Zoinksberg]

If I found the Grail, I think I'd destroy it, deny it to other people - unless I could gain enough wealth to do some good for enough people to make a difference.

Cute. I am not the religious type but if I came across an artifact that heavily supported, if not outright proved the existence of a deity I don't think my first thought would be "oh, this proves me wrong so I must destroy it." That's exactly the same attitude that coming from a religious zealot you would decry as insane, yet when it comes to your personal beliefs you carry it as a badge of honor.

It's extremely telling that, if finding out God exists and actually meeting Him, it wouldn't be "why do these things happen, what does it mean, and what don't I understand?" It's, "everything you do is wrong, let me tell you how to do your job." Very humble.

However, if God asks for a starship you are well within your right to be inquisitive as to why.