DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

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Makeshift Python
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

Post by Makeshift Python »

Maybe you guys should ask Robby why he thinks FIRST CONTACT is only "half-way decent". :P

But I'll explain the "hasn't aged well among fandom". Take it with a grain of salt, it's purely anecdotal. Over many forums and social media I've come across in recent years FIRST CONTACT isn't as beloved as it was in its day. Just a lot of remarks about how the script is cliched "assimilate this!", the film looks cheap, the action is schlocky, the Cochrane B-story is an embarrassment rife with bad comedy, ect. It was also the debut of Action Picard, and given how the following films overused that I think it retroactively hurt FC for some fans.

These aren't opinions I personally hold, but it's gotten to the point that I'm starting to notice that FIRST CONTACT is less revered than I thought it was. I even come across opinions that FC is overrated because it's the only decent TNG film thus fans of that show, especially those that grew up with it, probably embrace it a lot more than they would. I could sorta see that point.

One criticism I can agree with is that it doesn't push the characters into new territory in the way that the TOS films did with their characters. I'll throw in a very candid quote by Ron Moore that I agree with regarding the TNG films as a whole, and why they don't feel as significant as the TOS films. To give it context, it was from an interview sometime after his departure from VOYAGER, and well before ENTERPRISE and NEMESIS.
"I am more than willing to accept at this late date that our reach exceeded our grasp, on GENERATIONS. When we did the film, it was a very difficult time. The end of the series was a big psychological thing hanging over everyone’s head. The transition to films was not easy for anyone. It wasn’t easy for me and Brannon to write it. It wasn’t easy for Rick to produce it. I think it was hard on the actors going directly from the series to the features. The last three movies, THE NEXT GEN films, have gone on this little journey. When we did GENERATIONS, we were trying desperately to say something about mortality, about life and death, about getting older, about what it means to be human, about the death that lies out there for all of us, and that lies out their for our STAR TREK heroes. As heroic as they may be, they are all mortal. This will come to visit all of us. It was a big topic. It was probably something too big for us to grapple with, in our first feature film, right out of the gate—o put the original cast in it, and to make the transition, and to make them come out of the theater just really feeling something. I still like the film, but I know what the intent of the movie is. So lines that don’t work for you have some relevance to me. I know what we were trying to do, Brannon and I—trying to say something, trying to give it meaning, and trying to really touch and move the audience in an unexpected way in what could have been just strictly escapism and just flash. "After that, FIRST CONTACT became just a good picture. It works as a structural piece of filmmaking. It works technically. It hits all the right beats; it has more humor; it’s a good little story. But what does it really say? Does it really challenge you as a viewer? Does it really make any comment at all, any sort of larger sense? Is there any theme that resonates when you walk out of the theater? You walk out feeling like you had a good ride, a good little roller coaster ride. It’s fun; it’s adventure; let’s go do it again—nothing wrong with that. Now it feels like after the success of that, that’s all it’s become.

"I don’t know what INSURRECTION is about. INSURRECTION is a film that is telling you, ‘This is about something.’ ‘We are exploring an important topic,’ they keep saying. But what that important topic is, is a little unclear. Fountain of youth, immortality, something about these people that left and came back, children and parents, bureaucracy, and conspiracies. I think Michael was forced to continually keep dumbing down the script as it went on. Michael has a great passion for what he does. Michael believes in his writing a great deal. He really tries to give it meaning. When Michael writes a script, he really sets out to say something; he really wants to explore something. I know Michael had a great deal of passion at the beginning of that process. He really wanted this to be an important film. He really wanted to move the audience, and surprise them, and make them come out of the theater, like we did in GENERATIONS, thinking, ‘Wow. I hadn’t expected that from a STAR TREK movie.’ But little by little, you die the death of a thousand cuts. Michael was forced to continually rewrite, and pull it back, and take out elements to the point that Picard doesn’t even kiss the girl. There’s an emptiness to that film, and there is a certain emptiness to FIRST CONTACT, in that it’s a popcorn movie. That’s what we shot to do. I wanted to do a good one, and I wanted it to be well received, and I wanted it to make money. I wanted to be proud of it, and I am proud of it. But it is popcorn. And I think you can’t subsist on a diet of popcorn. Especially STAR TREK needs to be about more than that."

Moore recalls, "That trilogy they did with the original series, STAR TREK II, STAR TREK III, STAR TREK IV, are about something, about these characters getting old, about the characters accepting change and death, even though Spock comes back to life, moving on. They give up their ship to go get their friend; then they go back in time to save the whales. There were messages there. There were themes about environmentalism, themes about the human condition. We are all getting older. Kirk has to wear glasses. That was a stroke of genius. You’ve really made a decision to go somewhere with that character. To watch it play out over that three, it was really about something. Then V was just another episode. It doesn’t have any grander ambitions really than to be an episode and to try to do something about God. It’s so muddled, it’s just another episode. Then VI tries to be about the end of the Cold War, so VI shoots a little higher. Now there is no sense of them trying to shoot for those goals. They are not trying to go out there and push, and try and do something really interesting, and something that challenges their audience. Now it’s all about hanging on to an audience, about not letting go of the audience, and about being safe with the audience. Don’t confuse them. Don’t refer to old episodes, because they may not have seen them. Hang on to the audience, instead of being kind of bold and taking risks. Sometimes you are going to fall on your face, and sometimes you are going to do a story that is just out of your reach, like GENERATIONS probably was, but that’s the risk you take. You are storytellers. If you can’t take a risk with STAR TREK which is the biggest, safest franchise in all of science fiction with the exception of STAR WARS, what can you take a risk with?"
http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

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Well.... k.

I wonder why they didn't have Picard do some diplomatic story that put his principles to the test or something. In Nemesis they gave Riker one last huraa with a fight scene of his own, and he could have taken the torch for the action in the follow up to FIRST CONTACT.
..What mirror universe?
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

Post by Makeshift Python »

Patrick Stewart was the one who pushed for Action Picard in the movies. He genuinely believed that he could lead big action films like Arnold Schwarzenegger, thus he used the Trek films to fulfill that dream. It wasn't a coincidence that he showed off his biceps in tank tops and low cut sleeve t-shirts in FIRST CONTACT and INSURRECTION.

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Though he doesn't dress as such in NEMESIS. If anyone hasn't read it, look out for Michael Piller's book "Fade In", that documents the entire writing process of INSURRECTION, detailing the evolution of his drafts due to the demands of studio, Stewart, Spiner, Berman, etc.
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

Post by Enterprising »

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 am Well.... k.

I wonder why they didn't have Picard do some diplomatic story that put his principles to the test or something. In Nemesis they gave Riker one last huraa with a fight scene of his own, and he could have taken the torch for the action in the follow up to FIRST CONTACT.
What Riker got wasn't a "huraa" it was literally to give him something to do other than sit and wait on the bridge with everyone else, while Picard beamed over to play Elite Force in the Reman ship on god mode.
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

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Details.
..What mirror universe?
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

Post by BunBun299 »

Something that has been fascinating me of late. There has been a big push of SJW politics in the entertainment industry of late. STD is but one example, bragging about its black female lead and gay couple. Every single example of SJW entertainment that I am aware of has been bad.

I don't care for leftist politics. But it's presence doesn't necessarily ruin the work for me. I certainly didn't care for Rom quoting the Communist Manifesto, but I still love DS9, and even like that particular episode in spite of that.

Modern SJW shows/movies/comics/etc all seem to fail spectacularly. It's like the people pushing these agendas are just completely devoid of story telling talent. You'd think one of them would accidentally stumble upon a good story idea. If anyone is aware of an actual good SJW story out there, please point it out. I don't care for the message, but I might like to check it out just for the novelty.

As for this particular episode, I think Chuck is right about the series being too dependent on Michael Burnham. I was willing to give the character a chance going in, in spite my misgivings about her being shoe horned into Spock's family (which seems like a parody of how to write a Mary Sue), but then she destroys any good will I was willing to extend her with her mutiny. And nothing in any subsequent episodes convinced me she has changed. Granted, I'm only seeing these reviews and other internet personalities who comment on it. Chuck is fairer to it than most. But I just don't see anything that redeems Michael. With every episode revolving around her, I just don't think I can like this show.
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

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The people pushing the "let's let people who aren't straight white dudes be the hero for once" agenda aren't the ones doing the writing, it's 50something straight white dudes who only know how to write frat boys who are doing the writing and they have no fucking clue how to write anyone who isn't a frat boy so they make the token minority protagonist indescribably perfect at everything, a complete cipher whose personality depends on the plot and who is hero-worshiped by everybody and is always right and OH HI JANEWAY.

That's the problem. STD is being written by a middle-aged straight white hack who's never produced genuinely thought-provoking material in his life, and a team of his incompetent cronies. They are attempting to soullessly pander to the rising millennial progressive majority without really understanding what we want, and so they are destined to fail.
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

Post by Fianna »

I don't know how someone could say First Contact isn't "about anything". You can argue about how well it handles its themes, but there's a pretty clearly a theme about the nature of human progress: Zefram Cochran, despite his cynical attitude and lower ambitions, leading humanity down a brighter path, helping rise it up from the post-apocalyptic mess it had become; Picard, being forced to question whether he's really more evolved than these past humans, or if the same savage impulses are still driving him; and the Borg, offering an idea of "progress" that's distinctly nightmarish and inhuman.
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

Fianna wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:14 pm I don't know how someone could say First Contact isn't "about anything". You can argue about how well it handles its themes, but there's a pretty clearly a theme about the nature of human progress: Zefram Cochrane, despite his cynical attitude and lower ambitions, leading humanity down a brighter path, helping rise it up from the post-apocalyptic mess it had become; Picard, being forced to question whether he's really more evolved than these past humans, or if the same savage impulses are still driving him; and the Borg, offering an idea of "progress" that's distinctly nightmarish and inhuman.
Actually yeah I didn't think of that. As a kid I thought that Cochrane being weary of being seen as a symbolic hero was really interesting. I understood both the stunned crew meeting him and his aspirations of being a slouch.

With Picard though I don't think it was so much about him being better than the Borg particularly, just that his principles were being put to the test. I think it's poetic in itself because he's charismatically being broken down as a character, though this doesn't serve to make his diplomatic championship shine, he just does it because Data's his friend and he gets reeled in from the dark side.
..What mirror universe?
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Re: DIS: “Will You Take My Hand?”

Post by Karha of Honor »

BunBun299 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:46 pm Something that has been fascinating me of late. There has been a big push of SJW politics in the entertainment industry of late. STD is but one example, bragging about its black female lead and gay couple. Every single example of SJW entertainment that I am aware of has been bad.

I don't care for leftist politics. But it's presence doesn't necessarily ruin the work for me. I certainly didn't care for Rom quoting the Communist Manifesto, but I still love DS9, and even like that particular episode in spite of that.

Modern SJW shows/movies/comics/etc all seem to fail spectacularly. It's like the people pushing these agendas are just completely devoid of story telling talent. You'd think one of them would accidentally stumble upon a good story idea. If anyone is aware of an actual good SJW story out there, please point it out. I don't care for the message, but I might like to check it out just for the novelty.

As for this particular episode, I think Chuck is right about the series being too dependent on Michael Burnham. I was willing to give the character a chance going in, in spite my misgivings about her being shoe horned into Spock's family (which seems like a parody of how to write a Mary Sue), but then she destroys any good will I was willing to extend her with her mutiny. And nothing in any subsequent episodes convinced me she has changed. Granted, I'm only seeing these reviews and other internet personalities who comment on it. Chuck is fairer to it than most. But I just don't see anything that redeems Michael. With every episode revolving around her, I just don't think I can like this show.
The Newsroom was basically old school SJW and lived for 3 seasons.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1870479/?ref_=nv_sr_1
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