Star Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

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clearspira
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

Post by clearspira »

Yukaphile wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:23 am @clearspira Oh have you seen how women were treated in the decades leading up to the second wave? It's atrocious. You haven't heard the horror stories my mom had as a little girl in the 1950s. Trust me, it was widespread and common, and everybody knew it, but they couldn't stop it, because the institutions were apathetic, to say the least - like with Patrick Stewart's poor mother. That changed when people began screaming about it loudly enough that they had to pass laws that would bring new reforms. But why the hell do you think "the world" doesn't care about men? I repeat, men have never needed to be empowered like women have, because refer to your history, domestic abuse against women was off the charts among the lower classes decades ago, and men still held jobs determined by their gender, and then scoffed that women had lightly "housely" work, and we still, to a degree, rule the world. The majority of leaders worldwide right now ARE male. The majority of Congress is white men. It's also interesting you focus on suicide rates, because statistically speaking, women attempt it more. Gee, it's almost as if, by your logic, they suffer just as much as men, eh? Maybe we're all broken by the world and just want it to END regardless of gender. And what do you mean, reproductive rights? Reproductive rights is the domain of women, because they can get pregnant, unless you mean sexual assault, which is something no one deserves. I'm also against domestic violence, though hearing those in the religious right bitch that female breadwinners are "unnatural" doesn't serve to convince me that there isn't going to be some kind of push-back to try and shove women into the kitchen again. Those men talking that way are clearly resentful. But WHY? I wouldn't care if my wife made more. On the same token, if by pure accident, I did, there's no shame in that. You seem to think it's about actual oppression, and it isn't. It's about perception, and those can subtly influence us in ways we don't understand, given our own internal biases.

Then why are the rape statistics 200,000 per year? Which is it that of those affected, only 9% affect men? Or was it 4%? I forgot what the number was, but that's still low compared to how many women suffer the discrimination in terms of sexual assault. And that's largely due in part because of gender roles, our perceptions of gender, which are heteronormative and very exclusionary to the LGBT community, and other identities past male and female, and how those are subtly enforced among communities by parents and our role models. You probably think the number of men who don't report their rapes is higher, and yeah, statistics say that's likely, but so what? The same holds true for women. So anything higher than 200,000 per year is theoretical. And that's factoring in the "half that don't get reported," which could be wrong. Don't give me that bullshit about how the world doesn't care about men. Men have had the most dangerous jobs, been the ones shaping the world for centuries, even though women are more than capable, and it's only now we're letting women into the same jobs. Why else do you think we've never had a female President? Because that's A MAN'S JOB. People see it as a man's destiny to forge policy and influence other countries. It's the same problem men and women have always had. Always underestimating what women are capable of. And I won't stand for it.
1) I don't care about the past, I care about now. Now is all that matters to the lives of people that live now.

2) The reason why more men rape than women do is because men have dicks. It is 1000% easier for a man to rape a woman than it is for women to rape men. Is biology sexist?

3) Reproductive rights. Right now, if a woman decides to stick a needle in your condom i.e. fucking rapes you, you STILL have to pay maintanence on that child for eighteen years if she decides to keep it. Why can't he opt out? Because you have no rights over children as a man.

4) All you have proven with this essay is that women suffer too. Which is something I never disagreed with. My argument is that women are not oppressed in the West. But what do I know with my higher suicide rate, lower education standards, lower funding for male cancers, higher likelihood of being imprisoned for the same crime than women do... nah, men have it great :roll:
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

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Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:32 pm
Madner Kami wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:02 pm Does his racial or national or even economic background count, when evaluating his arguements and talking-points?
No, but that is not hwo the game is played.
On whose behalf do these standards apply? The Democrats, the marxists?
..What mirror universe?
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Karha of Honor
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

Post by Karha of Honor »

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:18 pm
Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:32 pm
Madner Kami wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:02 pm Does his racial or national or even economic background count, when evaluating his arguements and talking-points?
No, but that is not hwo the game is played.
On whose behalf do these standards apply? The Democrats, the marxists?
I seen some right wing idiocy like that to be honest. internet.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

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Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:19 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:18 pm
Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:32 pm
Madner Kami wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:02 pm Does his racial or national or even economic background count, when evaluating his arguements and talking-points?
No, but that is not hwo the game is played.
On whose behalf do these standards apply? The Democrats, the marxists?
I seen some right wing idiocy like that to be honest. internet.
And what kind of legitimate authority distinguishes them over this broad landscape called the internet?
..What mirror universe?
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clearspira
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

Post by clearspira »

Yukaphile wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:23 am @clearspira Oh have you seen how women were treated in the decades leading up to the second wave? It's atrocious. You haven't heard the horror stories my mom had as a little girl in the 1950s. Trust me, it was widespread and common, and everybody knew it, but they couldn't stop it, because the institutions were apathetic, to say the least - like with Patrick Stewart's poor mother. That changed when people began screaming about it loudly enough that they had to pass laws that would bring new reforms. But why the hell do you think "the world" doesn't care about men? I repeat, men have never needed to be empowered like women have, because refer to your history, domestic abuse against women was off the charts among the lower classes decades ago, and men still held jobs determined by their gender, and then scoffed that women had lightly "housely" work, and we still, to a degree, rule the world. The majority of leaders worldwide right now ARE male. The majority of Congress is white men. It's also interesting you focus on suicide rates, because statistically speaking, women attempt it more. Gee, it's almost as if, by your logic, they suffer just as much as men, eh? Maybe we're all broken by the world and just want it to END regardless of gender. And what do you mean, reproductive rights? Reproductive rights is the domain of women, because they can get pregnant, unless you mean sexual assault, which is something no one deserves. I'm also against domestic violence, though hearing those in the religious right bitch that female breadwinners are "unnatural" doesn't serve to convince me that there isn't going to be some kind of push-back to try and shove women into the kitchen again. Those men talking that way are clearly resentful. But WHY? I wouldn't care if my wife made more. On the same token, if by pure accident, I did, there's no shame in that. You seem to think it's about actual oppression, and it isn't. It's about perception, and those can subtly influence us in ways we don't understand, given our own internal biases.

Then why are the rape statistics 200,000 per year? Which is it that of those affected, only 9% affect men? Or was it 4%? I forgot what the number was, but that's still low compared to how many women suffer the discrimination in terms of sexual assault. And that's largely due in part because of gender roles, our perceptions of gender, which are heteronormative and very exclusionary to the LGBT community, and other identities past male and female, and how those are subtly enforced among communities by parents and our role models. You probably think the number of men who don't report their rapes is higher, and yeah, statistics say that's likely, but so what? The same holds true for women. So anything higher than 200,000 per year is theoretical. And that's factoring in the "half that don't get reported," which could be wrong. Don't give me that bullshit about how the world doesn't care about men. Men have had the most dangerous jobs, been the ones shaping the world for centuries, even though women are more than capable, and it's only now we're letting women into the same jobs. Why else do you think we've never had a female President? Because that's A MAN'S JOB. People see it as a man's destiny to forge policy and influence other countries. It's the same problem men and women have always had. Always underestimating what women are capable of. And I won't stand for it.
Define ''overall sense''. Third world, middle east? Fine. I ain't arguing that. But the West? I'll argue that to my grave. And I don't really care about your view on how I react to ''women's problems'' tbh. Long past caring.
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

Post by Yukaphile »

@clearspira

1) Yeah, and at best, you could say that the world fucks over men and women equally. Is there certain gender-specific ways it affects us? Yes, either because of the world or that we still adhere to rigid gender roles that subtly influence our behavior. But you literally cannot speak to hundreds of millions of people and declare men are the true victims now any more than saying women are the victims - because both are. I've seen a few Feminists who say it's about improving the welfare of men too. You may not see them. They exist. Because those who go online to discuss politics are not those who do so in the real world.

2) I'm not sure I buy that. I'm highly emotionally sensitive, and women can be super sexual too. You can't blame an organ for why someone rapes, you have to blame the mindset, and the culture.

3) Those are a few court cases that have been badly handled, and I agree - but that does not equate to millions of people, nor a conspiracy that "men are the true victims" now. Because you're male. You'll never know what it's like to be a woman in a primarily male-dominated world, with catcalling, groping, and harassment. At the same time, this is another reason I HATE gender roles. Because there have been a few court cases where the more capable father divorcing the mother lost custody because gender roles dictate that women are more nurturing. You see why I hate gender roles so much? I'd agree that's a travesty. But nor will I use that to spin a web of an agenda to claim it's oppressing men. This specific dude, yeah, because of cultural perceptions, and that needs to change. But women still suffer that in their own way. There's also the fact in some states here, the legislatures wanted to give a rapist the right to determine whether his victim had the option to get an abortion or not. YES REALLY. That actually happened. So maybe you should get outraged over that too? It's easy when you're in a right-wing bubble to see news reports of women attacking males and think that's all there is - same for a left-wing bubble, and just assume men are all complete asshole deviants who "can't control themselves." None of those are close to reality.

4) I'm still not seeing how a few botched court cases mean men are oppressed, because with that logic, given how gender roles are the cause, women are oppressed too, given we expect men to be "big, strong, and lead the way" and women to be "smaller, nurturing, and meant to support." It places unrealistic expectations on both. I repeat - because of those gender roles, there's never needed to be a reason to empower men the same way women needed, to prove they're just human beings with the same feelings as men. That women can feel high sexual lust, for example, and there's no shame in that. And... funding? Well, there's little funding for lung cancer, too, even though a lot of people who get it aren't smokers. I know. I worry about it given my brother is a chronic smoker and I might pick up passive smoking and pay for his mistake. And because of that stigma, could I get treated? They'd sneer I'm "getting what I deserved" for a lifetime of smoking, WHEN I NEVER HAVE.
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Worffan101
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

Post by Worffan101 »

clearspira wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:16 pm1) I don't care about the past, I care about now. Now is all that matters to the lives of people that live now.

2) The reason why more men rape than women do is because men have dicks. It is 1000% easier for a man to rape a woman than it is for women to rape men. Is biology sexist?

3) Reproductive rights. Right now, if a woman decides to stick a needle in your condom i.e. fucking rapes you, you STILL have to pay maintanence on that child for eighteen years if she decides to keep it. Why can't he opt out? Because you have no rights over children as a man.

4) All you have proven with this essay is that women suffer too. Which is something I never disagreed with. My argument is that women are not oppressed in the West. But what do I know with my higher suicide rate, lower education standards, lower funding for male cancers, higher likelihood of being imprisoned for the same crime than women do... nah, men have it great :roll:
1. Ok, let's talk about now.

2. False, unless you're going to quote that nutcase radfem who got on the FSTDT top 100 for saying that a penis is a "fucking weapon" and that she trains her sons to hate their penises. Rape is more a consequence of societal factors and psychology rather than anatomy; in fact, female rapes of men are massively underreported due to massive social stigma against males who are perceived to be "unmasculine" and the societal assumption that men are always hungry for sex and cannot withold consent. It's ridiculously easy for a female predator to slip a guy roofies and Viagra, then tie him to her bed and fuck him until she gets whatever she wants out of him.

3. If you can prove that she conceived the child off of you without your consent, not true. And there are literally thousands of women in fucked-up custody cases who will tell you that yes, men DO have rights over their children, as they are forced to hand their kid over to an abusive ex for half the week as part of the divorce settlement.

4. Your argument is ridiculous and incorrect. Yes, there are some consequences for nonconforming men in a patriarchal society, but those are not as significant as the consequences for women. Women still get paid less for the same work than men do, are still regularly denied promotions and used as scapegoats in the corporate world (remember that crazy Republican presidential candidate, Carly Fiorina? She was a victim of this, was brought in as a powerless figurehead CEO for six months after some idiot fucked her company beyond repair so that she'd take the fall), still suffer significant pressure from law enforcement and authorities to not press charges in sexual assault cases, still lack full reproductive freedom (which, yes, I consider female reproductive freedom to be inherently more important than male reproductive freedom because the man doesn't have to carry the kid inside his abdomen, with attendant health issues and serious fatality risk, for nine months), still suffer social stigma for nonconformity, still suffer social pressure to stay in the home and embrace "traditional gender roles" or whatever other bullshit the Republicans are on about this week, and generally do represent a second-class body in many ways.
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

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YES, WORFFAN, THIS PRECISELY.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
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Karha of Honor
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

Post by Karha of Honor »

BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:22 pm
Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:19 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:18 pm
Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:32 pm
Madner Kami wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:02 pm Does his racial or national or even economic background count, when evaluating his arguements and talking-points?
No, but that is not hwo the game is played.
On whose behalf do these standards apply? The Democrats, the marxists?
I seen some right wing idiocy like that to be honest. internet.
And what kind of legitimate authority distinguishes them over this broad landscape called the internet?
I was speaking for myself.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Sta Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:19 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:22 pm
Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:19 pm
BridgeConsoleMasher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:18 pm
Slash Gallagher wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:32 pm
Madner Kami wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:02 pm Does his racial or national or even economic background count, when evaluating his arguements and talking-points?
No, but that is not hwo the game is played.
On whose behalf do these standards apply? The Democrats, the marxists?
I seen some right wing idiocy like that to be honest. internet.
And what kind of legitimate authority distinguishes them over this broad landscape called the internet?
I was speaking for myself.
It seems like you're saying that the game you mentioned of counting one's racial national or even economic background in evaluating arguments and talking points is something you partake in. At least that's what I get when you talk about right-wing idiocy then commenting later that you speak for yourself.

I'm really not sure where you're going with this.
..What mirror universe?
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