Dragon Ball Super vs. DC Comics and Marvel Comics Debate

[SSJGodGoku]

It's not about losing or winning, you immature brat! It's about you being a juvenile troll.

Spoken just like a loser in the debate.

[Yukaphile]

I mean, why do you hate Superman anyway? I like him. I see him and Goku as worthy rivals, but that respect is completely absent from you. And what is it you hope to accomplish here? I virtually agree those two Death Battles were crap, and that the only time Superman won was with the first one, because Post-Crisis had better feats, though as of the second one, Goku trounced New 52 and Post-Crisis. Seriously. All you're doing is... beating a dead horse because you once called me a DBZ downplayer. Which if I was, I'd try to claim that it was Beerus, not Goku, creating the shockwaves in Episode 12. That Zeno busting a timeline would be only solar system tier visually. That Cell was only a planet buster. That core busting is a thing. Split durability. And so on and so forth. And I don't. All you're doing is proving what a colossal jackass you are.

[SSJGodGoku]

I mean, why do you hate Superman anyway?

Because Comic Stans wank him and say he can beat people he can't.

I like him. I see him and Goku as worthy rivals, but that respect is completely absent from you.

A flea isn't a worthy rival to a god.

And what is it you hope to accomplish here?

Proving that I'm right.

I virtually agree those two Death Battles were crap, and that the only time Superman won was with the first one, because Post-Crisis had better feats, though as of the second one, Goku trounced New 52 and Post-Crisis.

Like I said before, even Saiyan saga Krillin would destroy Post-Crisis Supes.

Seriously. All you're doing is... beating a dead horse because you once called me a DBZ downplayer. Which if I was, I'd try to claim that it was Beerus, not Goku, creating the shockwaves in Episode 12.

It was both of them.

That Zeno busting a timeline would be only solar system tier visually. That Cell was only a planet buster. That core busting is a thing. Split durability. And so on and so forth.

All that stuff is bullshit but lots of the stuff you've said is bullshit too. Like saying that the Flash can beat Goku, or Jiren's power isn't beyond time.

And I don't. All you're doing is proving what a colossal jackass you are.

Because I can out-debate you? All through these debates I've been providing scans, screencaps, and solid evidence to back up everything I've said, while all of your arguments are based on 'I heard this' or 'I read that', without giving any references or citations to back any of it up. As far as I'm concerned, that makes me the proper debater and you the troll.

[Yukaphile]

Because Comic Stans wank him and say he can beat people he can't.

You're doing the exact same thing for Goku. Hypocrite much?

A flea isn't a worthy rival to a god.

You call ME ignorant, yet you're ignorant if you have to be so blind as to see it depends on what point you set the timeline with Goku, whether you go with filler, GT, or video games, the same for Superman, what version you use (Kal-El or Kal-L, and whether it's from an Elseworlds alternate timeline), whether it's prior to the Crisis on Infinite Earths or after it, and so on. It's more than just powers and ability, though. Their opposite yet somehow similar personalities and Goku's dark twist on Superman's origins (yes, I believe Toriyama was paying homage to and was not ripping off Superman) would make them more than just worthy rivals, but also legitimate bros in a "Bromance Forever" type thing, like O'Brien and Bashir on DS9. You don't see that. This is why it's easy to say you hate DC and Marvel. When you act like this.

Proving that I'm right.

All you're doing is proving you're dumb, a troll, or a liar, and we can all see it, buddy. To paraphrase SF Debris, "In one [man's] struggle against the world, bet on the world."

Like I said before, even Saiyan saga Krillin would destroy Post-Crisis Supes.

There is the question on whether or not the Kienzan could cut Superman, given that he's withstood things that are razor-thin - and I mean a molecule thin - before. I don't recall where, but I know that's part of the official lore. I don't think the Solar Flare would blind him given that his eyes are filtered to see specifically along different wavelengths. Maybe the first time if you caught him by surprise, but that ain't happening more than once. And without that, what does Krillin have past - scales to a moon buster? Post-Crisis Superman has way better feats than that, so no wonder you gotta downplay like claiming New Genesis and Apokolips aren't galaxy-sized and thus he only tanked a normal planet exploding. Fine, whatever. Even if true, that would put him at final form Frieza level, which Saiyan Saga Krillin ain't beating. He beat Imperiex, remember? Imperix was an entropic force that would have destroyed the universe. IIRC he can contain an entire universe within his cells. He was able to fly from Paris to Metropolis and change his clothes in seconds, and then be back before the person had noticed he was missing - and that's not travel speed, btw, to change in that amount of time requires more than flying in a straight line, so it's a legitimate combat speed feat, that Krillin could not hope to match. Though you're probably going to cite the 21st century tournament thing, so I'll just add that there's many more. Please also remember Superman can phase his body, and has something similar to Ultra Instinct (though nowhere near as refined or as fast) called the Theta State. If you honestly think Saiyan Saga Krillin could beat Post-Crisis Superman when all he has is a Solar Flare attack and the Kienzan, then you're just being a fool. Next you'll say Yamcha could beat him, whose only claim to fame is being the butt of jokes. God save us all from DBZ wankers like you.

It was both of them.

I agree. I'm simply refuting your claims that you somehow think I'm a DBZ downplayer just because I have a different interpretation than you, and won't cling to treating my pet franchise as sacrosanct. You're being very dogmatic. By your logic, everyone here would be downplayers. That excludes a large percentage of DBZ fans and borders on "No True Scotsman" territory. People like you are the reason the trope "Fan Dumb" exists for a reason.

All that stuff is bullshit but lots of the stuff you've said is bullshit too. Like saying that the Flash can beat Goku, or Jiren's power isn't beyond time.

I think there's a case to be made Goku and Flash are of equal speed, given what's happened in DBS, which is very impressive and a great milestone for Z - but there's still a long way to go before the majority of battle forums are going to accept Goku beats Flash, given the sheer hax Flash has that Goku hasn't shown he could resist, and I tend to side with them. And you're the one who thinks Jiren "transcends" time even though he can't manipulate it to any meaningful extent past you whining "my verse's time mechanics trump your verse's time mechanics because I like mine better!" Who's being the bullshitter here?

Because I can out-debate you? All through these debates I've been providing scans, screencaps, and solid evidence to back up everything I've said, while all of your arguments are based on 'I heard this' or 'I read that', without giving any references or citations to back any of it up. As far as I'm concerned, that makes me the proper debater and you the troll.

No, you've spammed, like with the Jiren quote, that I don't dispute, I just disagree with YOUR interpretation. Who's the proper debater here and who isn't? All this over a stupid Goku vs. Superman thread. You're cancer, friend. Fanatics like you are why the DBZ fandom is so hated now.

[SSJGodGoku]

Because Comic Stans wank him and say he can beat people he can't.

You're doing the exact same thing for Goku. Hypocrite much?

I've given proof to back up all of my claims.

You call ME ignorant, yet you're ignorant if you have to be so blind as to see it depends on what point you set the timeline with Goku, whether you go with filler, GT, or video games, the same for Superman, what version you use (Kal-El or Kal-L, and whether it's from an Elseworlds alternate timeline), whether it's prior to the Crisis on Infinite Earths or after it, and so on. It's more than just powers and ability, though. Their opposite yet somehow similar personalities and Goku's dark twist on Superman's origins (yes, I believe Toriyama was paying homage to and was not ripping off Superman) would make them more than just worthy rivals, but also legitimate bros in a "Bromance Forever" type thing, like O'Brien and Bashir on DS9. You don't see that. This is why it's easy to say you hate DC and Marvel. When you act like this.

Well sure, Goku can be friends with weak people, like Mr. Satan. But that's hardly the point of a debate.

All you're doing is proving you're dumb, a troll, or a liar, and we can all see it, buddy. To paraphrase SF Debris, "In one [man's] struggle against the world, bet on the world."

Except that you conceded after you couldn't refute my arguments.

There is the question on whether or not the Kienzan could cut Superman, given that he's withstood things that are razor-thin - and I mean a molecule thin - before. I don't recall where, but I know that's part of the official lore.

See, here you go again. 'I've heard this', - 'I recall that' - newsflash bro - that's not valid evidence!

Actually cite your sources if you expect to be taken seriously.

I don't think the Solar Flare would blind him given that his eyes are filtered to see specifically along different wavelengths. Maybe the first time if you caught him by surprise, but that ain't happening more than once. And without that, what does Krillin have past - scales to a moon buster?

Piccolo's moonbusting was scaled to beyond planet level due to the time lapse of the fragments disappearing from view. Furthermore, it's faster than light. Post-Crisis Superman got knocked unconscious by smashing into a fake moon that was only 81 billion tons in weight.

Post-Crisis Superman has way better feats than that, so no wonder you gotta downplay like claiming New Genesis and Apokolips aren't galaxy-sized and thus he only tanked a normal planet exploding.

This again? I already proved you wrong on this one. They're only 'galaxy-sized' if you don't take into account the fact that characters are scaled up when they travel through the Boom Tubes. Do I need to post the scan again?

Fine, whatever. Even if true, that would put him at final form Frieza level, which Saiyan Saga Krillin ain't beating.

How the hell do you get that? Freeza survived the planet Namek exploding as he was dying and cut in half. Also, in his first form, he busted a planet with 10 times the gravity of Earth which was calced at star level, and that was with a single casual finger attack.

He beat Imperiex, remember? Imperix was an entropic force that would have destroyed the universe. IIRC he can contain an entire universe within his cells.

No he didn't. Once again, you're just mindlessly parroting fanboy lies you've heard, and showing that you've never read the comics themselves.

Imperiex was defeated by a combination of things including Darkseid's Omega Beams, Green Lantern Kyle Rayner, and Kismet who is a being way above Superman. She was powering him up so he could deliver the final attack. By himself he was no match for Imperiex at all.

He was able to fly from Paris to Metropolis and change his clothes in seconds, and then be back before the person had noticed he was missing - and that's not travel speed, btw, to change in that amount of time requires more than flying in a straight line, so it's a legitimate combat speed feat

No it's not - there was no combat involved.

that Krillin could not hope to match. Though you're probably going to cite the 21st century tournament thing, so I'll just add that there's many more.

I'll do you one better - Goku vs. Tienshinhan, 22nd Budokai. Tien uses taiyoken (solar flare) which is light and thus moves at lightspeed, but Goku outruns it and grabs Roshi's glasses to block it before it hits him. Goku back as a kid was already much faster than light.

Please also remember Superman can phase his body, and has something similar to Ultra Instinct (though nowhere near as refined or as fast) called the Theta State.

What a silly comparison, as that requires a lot of meditation first and doesn't even have any impressive showings.

If you honestly think Saiyan Saga Krillin could beat Post-Crisis Superman when all he has is a Solar Flare attack and the Kienzan, then you're just being a fool. Next you'll say Yamcha could beat him, whose only claim to fame is being the butt of jokes. God save us all from DBZ wankers like you.

All you're doing is repeating myths and lies from Comic Stans who distorted the facts.

Superman was KO'd by an exploding moon that was much lighter than Earth's moon.

Saiyan Saga Krillin is way beyond that power.

One ki blast would end it.

I agree. I'm simply refuting your claims that you somehow think I'm a DBZ downplayer just because I have a different interpretation than you, and won't cling to treating my pet franchise as sacrosanct. You're being very dogmatic. By your logic, everyone here would be downplayers. That excludes a large percentage of DBZ fans and borders on "No True Scotsman" territory. People like you are the reason the trope "Fan Dumb" exists for a reason.

Says the parrot who just repeats debunked claims and doesn't cite any sources or evidence.

I think there's a case to be made Goku and Flash are of equal speed, given what's happened in DBS, which is very impressive and a great milestone for Z - but there's still a long way to go before the majority of battle forums are going to accept Goku beats Flash, given the sheer hax Flash has that Goku hasn't shown he could resist, and I tend to side with them.

Didn't we go over this already? Flash takes time and needs to borrow speed to get anywhere close to even SSJG Goku's base speed. And that's assuming he's lucky enough not to get absorbed into the speedforce, which is a risk he takes every time he even gets close to lightspeed.

And you're the one who thinks Jiren "transcends" time even though he can't manipulate it to any meaningful extent past you whining "my verse's time mechanics trump your verse's time mechanics because I like mine better!" Who's being the bullshitter here?

This again? You don't need to be able to manipulate something offensively to be immune to it.

Here, let me play your own little game against you: One of Superman's powers is that he is immune to all earthly diseases. According to you, the fact that he doesn't have the power to create and manipulate diseases and use them to infect his opponents means that he's not really immune to them either. Immunity =/= manipulation. Your argument is a complete non-sequitur.

No, you've spammed, like with the Jiren quote, that I don't dispute, I just disagree with YOUR interpretation. Who's the proper debater here and who isn't? All this over a stupid Goku vs. Superman thread. You're cancer, friend. Fanatics like you are why the DBZ fandom is so hated now.

I've corrected you on tons of things you've gotten wrong. All of your arguments are just repeating hearsay. You never give any scans, direct citations, or sources. It's obvious that you have no idea what you're babbling about.

[Yukaphile]

Well sure, Goku can be friends with weak people, like Mr. Satan. But that's hardly the point of a debate.

That right there is an illustration of your mindset. You treat Superman as an inferior bug (and as the thread later reveals further down, to FUCKING DRAGON BALL TIER CHARACTERS) Yes, Goku's gotten some great feats, but Superman has great and epic feats too that you do not respect. Show me Goku ever once moving planets across space like Superman has. I know you're gonna scream "lifting strength," but I'm not even arguing who would win here. That's still an impressive display of superhuman strength no matter how it's carried out, that you sneer at. To date, the only beings in DBS shown to do so are Whis and Vados, and they are far above Goku. Not using this to claim Goku would lose. I'm just saying it's an indication of your mindset. You probably respect Vados doing that. You don't respect Superman. It's like you're jealous of him doing all these things first, as most DBZ fanatical wankers are. And to be clear, I loved Vados doing that. Easily best feat of DBS. But I also respect Superman for it, like in Superboy Vol 1 during the Silver Age. That demands respect too, and proves you're nothing but a childish fanboy who doesn't respect your opponents. Made clear when you kept demanding debates from me despite how miserable and depressed and borderline suicidal I was.

See, here you go again. 'I've heard this', - 'I recall that' - newsflash bro - that's not valid evidence!

Actually cite your sources if you expect to be taken seriously.

You're so utterly irritating, I don't feel inclined to do so at the moment. You'll scream, "Victory!" but whatever. I don't care.

Piccolo's moonbusting was scaled to beyond planet level due to the time lapse of the fragments disappearing from view. Furthermore, it's faster than light. Post-Crisis Superman got knocked unconscious by smashing into a fake moon that was only 81 billion tons in weight.

Who did the scaling? Sounds like dubious science to me. I'm not even a math wiz, but Vegeta could blow up a planet with a power level of around 18,000. A small planet, as Earth is often said to be. So yeah, sorry, but Krillin's moon level unless you wanna argue he's stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta. That Piccolo wasn't exhausted doesn't make it planet busting, because to state how much higher "he was holding back" would be purely theoretical. It's like trying to gauge how much water is left in a container when you don't know the size of the container and you can only hear the splashes in the dark. Is that accurate for measuring power? And DBZ is not consistent with this either. Like how they said 300 killis could destroy a planet. Shouldn't Goku be far past that in his Super Saiyan form? It implies he's still somewhere close to planetary ranges, even in the Buu Saga, which you know I reject because I consider Cell and Buu star to solar system level threats. And that's one inconsistent feat among... many others. Of course you'd bring up the moon feat. How about him surviving the Source wall exploding or taking on Superboy-Prime who survived The Monarch's Big Bang blast that literally blew up a universe? That's power scaling, which you want to adhere to, and I reject, so... go ahead and lie in your bed. One final thing to note is that Piccolo's beam took four seconds to travel to the moon. That's only a quarter of the speed of light, buddy. Not actual FTL speeds.

How the hell do you get that? Freeza survived the planet Namek exploding as he was dying and cut in half. Also, in his first form, he busted a planet with 10 times the gravity of Earth which was calced at star level, and that was with a single casual finger attack.

And we had no idea what his power level was at that moment, and we don't actually see the moment he tanks the blast, just Goku countering, he gets lost in the explosion, and that's it. Next time he's shown floating through space. He had some power left after Goku gave it to him. Not enough to stave off his rage attack, but enough. How much contributed to him tanking the blast? It's hard to quantify something you don't see. Refer to my "unknown amount of water in a container in a dark room" argument above to see why.

No he didn't. Once again, you're just mindlessly parroting fanboy lies you've heard, and showing that you've never read the comics themselves.

Imperiex was defeated by a combination of things including Darkseid's Omega Beams, Green Lantern Kyle Rayner, and Kismet who is a being way above Superman. She was powering him up so he could deliver the final attack. By himself he was no match for Imperiex at all.

Well, you're so fucking annoying, I don't really care. I admit to not knowing about this because I'm still in the process of my download (I have 230,000 pages so far), and will begin printing them onto paper to read eventually. Though it's rich you're insisting I haven't read the comics when clearspira so masterfully pointed out YOU haven't either. At least I will tell you I haven't, and explain why, that I'm in the process of orderly preparing to do so. You. You've just scrolled through forum and VS and respect threads looking for a particular angle to interpret any feat you see in order to downplay to help your pet characters win. I know. I was that person once, only for DBZ's side rather than DC. I regret to ever be like that. I don't wanna be the guy who harassed Ben Singer so horribly. You? You disgust me. Grow up.

No it's not - there was no combat involved.

He flew in a straight line, then had to gather his clothes from the dresser and undress, put them on, and then move in specific ways to leap out of the building and fly in a straight line back to Paris, within seconds. I bring that up only so you won't scream "travel speed" and turn this into a big "travel speed vs. combat speed" debate, but I wanna be clear this is another way I respect Superman that you don't. Goku has never been shown traveling through space at FTL speeds. Beings like Whis and Vados have. Would you call that "travel speed" too? Be consistent, please. Though if you're gonna argue travel speed, yo, Captain Kirk, faster than light. Especially in bed. I hear the ladies call it "The Kirk Maneuver."

I'll do you one better - Goku vs. Tienshinhan, 22nd Budokai. Tien uses taiyoken (solar flare) which is light and thus moves at lightspeed, but Goku outruns it and grabs Roshi's glasses to block it before it hits him. Goku back as a kid was already much faster than light.

Let's just say I accept this. I've never been against the idea of FTL speeds in Dragon Ball, though some think that's wanking (I personally think a better interpretation is Raditz is 1 c as that correlates well with Piccolo's power level and how long it took him to destroy a moon), but fine, moving on. That's not automatically faster than light, that would be, at best, 1 c. Again, the "changing your clothes in a few seconds" feat trumps that. And I could go to respect threads and probably find more, and while some of their interpretations are so wrong as to be laughable (like the so-called Book of Infinite Pages or "lifting The Spectre"), they do actually show scans, but... I'm not going to. Because you're just a bothersome pest I don't care about convincing you anymore so much as just... blasting you. You're a bug who should be stomped out. And this may be odd coming from me, but you disgrace this forum with your petulant, childish attitude. At least I'm TRYING to do better, I just suffer from a lot of pain and depression and anxieties. You will blatantly insult people over STUPID shit. How is that okay? IT'S NOT. You're grasping at straws in pushing further and further back so at some point, you'll probably eventually say Goku could have beaten Cosmic Armor Superman when the series first began given the wanking you are doing. The thing you fail to realize is these are all open to interpretation. None of them are absolute. You treat them as such, thus embodying the worst aspect of immature fanboys. Next you'll probably say Yu Yu Hakusho characters could beat DC and Marvel characters.

Says the parrot who just repeats debunked claims and doesn't cite any sources or evidence.

Just... go away, you miserable insect.

This again? You don't need to be able to manipulate something offensively to be immune to it.

Here, let me play your own little game against you: One of Superman's powers is that he is immune to all earthly diseases. According to you, the fact that he doesn't have the power to create and manipulate diseases and use them to infect his opponents means that he's not really immune to them either. Immunity =/= manipulation. Your argument is a complete non-sequitur.

"Immunity" to something does not mean the same thing as "transcending!" Look it up on urban dictionary, idiot!

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Just... go away, you miserable insect.

That's kind of a rude thing to say.

[Yukaphile]

... yes, okay, you're right, I'm sorry, but... what do you expect during all the times I was coming and going and he kept pestering me for a debate? He didn't care that I was unhappy. All he cares about is "defending the honor," that is, the narrow-minded dogmatic interpretation he has for his pet franchise. And I'm still miffed he called me a DBZ downplayer and flat-out said he hates me for being one. Which I am NOT. Do you know what that means among debaters? He's implying I have an agenda to interpret their feats and showings and abilities on screen to claim they're weaker than they really are, in an effort to slur and degrade the series. When that is not true. I know. I've been like him. I know how he thinks. If he'd just leave me alone, I'd be happy. But he doesn't want to. Still, I did cross the line, and I apologize...

[Yukaphile]

You know what, I'm gonna block him. The mods are right. Just ignore him. Don't let him get to me.

[SSJGodGoku]

That right there is an illustration of your mindset. You treat Superman as an inferior bug (and as the thread later reveals further down, to FUCKING DRAGON BALL TIER CHARACTERS) Yes, Goku's gotten some great feats, but Superman has great and epic feats too that you do not respect.

Because most of them are lies or exaggerations created by fanboys, and you blindly believe them.

Show me Goku ever once moving planets across space like Superman has. I know you're gonna scream "lifting strength," but I'm not even arguing who would win here. That's still an impressive display of superhuman strength no matter how it's carried out, that you sneer at.

Except he never actually did that in Post-Crisis times. Goku can universe bust easily with a single punch in one of his weaker forms.

To date, the only beings in DBS shown to do so are Whis and Vados, and they are far above Goku. Not using this to claim Goku would lose. I'm just saying it's an indication of your mindset. You probably respect Vados doing that. You don't respect Superman.

That's a really dumb line of reasoning. You might as well say that since Goku has never shapeshifted, that means Puar and Oolong have more impressive feats than Goku.

And, of course, once again, Post-Crisis Superman never did such a thing. In fact, he failed to try to move one of the moons of Jupiter just a few years before Final Crisis when he was at his strongest in that era.

It's like you're jealous of him doing all these things first, as most DBZ fanatical wankers are.

LOL! Yeah, I'm 'jealous' of much weaker feats because they were written a long time ago. I guess Superman wankers must be jealous of stuff like Hercules killing a lion because it was written first.

And to be clear, I loved Vados doing that. Easily best feat of DBS.

lolwut. Best feats of DBS are things like Zeno wiping out a timeline, or Goku and Jiren shaking the infinite World of Void by powering up to less than their full power.

But I also respect Superman for it, like in Superboy Vol 1 during the Silver Age. That demands respect too, and proves you're nothing but a childish fanboy who doesn't respect your opponents. Made clear when you kept demanding debates from me despite how miserable and depressed and borderline suicidal I was.

You're the one who started shit with me, if you remember.

You're so utterly irritating, I don't feel inclined to do so at the moment. You'll scream, "Victory!" but whatever. I don't care.

Nice excuse. You've never backed up any of your claims with evidence.

Who did the scaling? Sounds like dubious science to me. I'm not even a math wiz, but Vegeta could blow up a planet with a power level of around 18,000. A small planet, as Earth is often said to be. So yeah, sorry, but Krillin's moon level unless you wanna argue he's stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta.

Dumb. Vegeta could easily destroy the Earth but it was never said that that was his absolute maximum power. It was measured from the manga where the speed of falling rocks was used to find a timeframe and the kinetic energy of the fragments of the moon were moving so fast it was planet level.

That Piccolo wasn't exhausted doesn't make it planet busting, because to state how much higher "he was holding back" would be purely theoretical. It's like trying to gauge how much water is left in a container when you don't know the size of the container and you can only hear the splashes in the dark. Is that accurate for measuring power? And DBZ is not consistent with this either. Like how they said 300 killis could destroy a planet. Shouldn't Goku be far past that in his Super Saiyan form? It implies he's still somewhere close to planetary ranges, even in the Buu Saga, which you know I reject because I consider Cell and Buu star to solar system level threats. And that's one inconsistent feat among... many others.

Filler. In canon all it says it that Yakon is at 800 kilis and SSJ1 Goku (in the Buu saga) was at 3000. Nothing about how much are needed to destroy a planet. Not that that would even be a meaningful statement because planets come in different sizes and densities.

You really need to do some damn research before spouting your mouth off like you know what you're talking about. You are obviously nothing but a dilettante when it comes to any of this stuff.

Of course you'd bring up the moon feat. How about him surviving the Source wall exploding

Unquantifiable nonsense.

or taking on Superboy-Prime who survived The Monarch's Big Bang blast that literally blew up a universe?

First of all, no it didn't. It only emptied part of the universe and didn't even destroy a plant that was far enough away. Secondly, Superboy only survived that because the Time Trapper saved him by bringing him through time. I might as well say that Goku and Vegeta survived Zeno erasing the multiverse and timeline because they escaped in the time machine. Third of all, Superman was never a match for that brat anyway, in fact he beat entire teams of superheroes at once and they always needed plot devices and tricks to depower him in order to beat him. "Taking on" someone means nothing when you get your ass kicked. Mr. Satan 'took on' Cell and Buu and survived without any serious injuries, after all.

That's power scaling, which you want to adhere to, and I reject, so... go ahead and lie in your bed. One final thing to note is that Piccolo's beam took four seconds to travel to the moon. That's only a quarter of the speed of light, buddy. Not actual FTL speeds.

Where the hell are you getting that number from? You just made that up.

And we had no idea what his power level was at that moment

In his first form when he destroyed planet Vegeta? 530,000. This is stated directly.

and we don't actually see the moment he tanks the blast, just Goku countering, he gets lost in the explosion, and that's it. Next time he's shown floating through space. He had some power left after Goku gave it to him. Not enough to stave off his rage attack, but enough. How much contributed to him tanking the blast? It's hard to quantify something you don't see. Refer to my "unknown amount of water in a container in a dark room" argument above to see why.

When Goku fired the Angry Kamehameha at Freeza we see his face distort and get shredded apart, and when King Cold finds him in space, he has the same injuries, which he didn't have before that. His body was also more damaged than it was when he first got cut in half.

Well, you're so fucking annoying, I don't really care. I admit to not knowing about this because I'm still in the process of my download (I have 230,000 pages so far), and will begin printing them onto paper to read eventually.

Yeah, I would find it pretty fucking annoying too if someone with actual knowledge kept constantly refuting my arguments and pointing out my lies. You're pretty much just like Donald Trump now - you just mindlessly repeat anything you hear as long as it fits your agenda, not caring whether it's true or not, then you get all pissy when people point out that you got something wrong.

Though it's rich you're insisting I haven't read the comics when clearspira so masterfully pointed out YOU haven't either.

Except he did no such thing.

At least I will tell you I haven't, and explain why, that I'm in the process of orderly preparing to do so. You. You've just scrolled through forum and VS and respect threads looking for a particular angle to interpret any feat you see in order to downplay to help your pet characters win. I know. I was that person once, only for DBZ's side rather than DC. I regret to ever be like that. I don't wanna be the guy who harassed Ben Singer so horribly. You? You disgust me. Grow up.

This is weapons-grade projection right here.

He flew in a straight line, then had to gather his clothes from the dresser and undress, put them on, and then move in specific ways to leap out of the building and fly in a straight line back to Paris, within seconds. I bring that up only so you won't scream "travel speed" and turn this into a big "travel speed vs. combat speed" debate, but I wanna be clear this is another way I respect Superman that you don't. Goku has never been shown traveling through space at FTL speeds.

That's only because he can't breathe in space, dumbass.

Beings like Whis and Vados have. Would you call that "travel speed" too? Be consistent, please. Though if you're gonna argue travel speed, yo, Captain Kirk, faster than light. Especially in bed. I hear the ladies call it "The Kirk Maneuver."

Whis and Vados have Ultra Instinct. They can fight without even thinking.

Let's just say I accept this. I've never been against the idea of FTL speeds in Dragon Ball, though some think that's wanking (I personally think a better interpretation is Raditz is 1 c as that correlates well with Piccolo's power level and how long it took him to destroy a moon), but fine, moving on. That's not automatically faster than light, that would be, at best, 1 c.

Wrong. He outran the light Tien fired by moving away from it before it hit him, grabbing Roshi's glasses, and then returning to his position, all before the light even reached where he was standing.

Again, the "changing your clothes in a few seconds" feat trumps that.

Are you on crack? Light can circle the entire Earth over 7 times in one second. Going from America to France isn't close to that.

And I could go to respect threads and probably find more, and while some of their interpretations are so wrong as to be laughable (like the so-called Book of Infinite Pages or "lifting The Spectre"), they do actually show scans, but... I'm not going to.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Because you're just a bothersome pest I don't care about convincing you anymore so much as just... blasting you. You're a bug who should be stomped out. And this may be odd coming from me, but you disgrace this forum with your petulant, childish attitude. At least I'm TRYING to do better, I just suffer from a lot of pain and depression and anxieties. You will blatantly insult people over STUPID shit. How is that okay? IT'S NOT. You're grasping at straws in pushing further and further back so at some point, you'll probably eventually say Goku could have beaten Cosmic Armor Superman when the series first began given the wanking you are doing. The thing you fail to realize is these are all open to interpretation. None of them are absolute. You treat them as such, thus embodying the worst aspect of immature fanboys. Next you'll probably say Yu Yu Hakusho characters could beat DC and Marvel characters.

Translation: 'WAAAH WAAAH WAAAH, the big mean man beat me in a debate, WAAAH WAAAH WAAAH!'

Get over yourself.

Just... go away, you miserable insect.

Yeah, you've got nothing. If you want me to stop replying to you, then all you have to do is admit that I'm right and you're wrong, and then stop replying yourself. It's that simple. Of course I'll bet you're not going to do that, because for all your bluster about not caring about the outcome of the debate, you still want to continue it because deep down, you know I'm crushing you and that makes you just so mad.

"Immunity" to something does not mean the same thing as "transcending!" Look it up on urban dictionary, idiot!

No need, you just admitted that Jiren is immune to time based abilities, which is what I was all I was trying to say in the first place.