ENT: Two Days and Two Nights

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm not trying to say that they hate each other, and there's plenty of room to suggest that he's actually a decent individual. I've definitely seen him express respect for Spock's intelligence, but that also serves to contrast how at odds he is with Spock's demeanor.

In V when he says, "I liked him better before he died," there's plenty you can make out from that about his working relationship with Spock. I mean just the nuances of it, like partly him speaking about him in third person is characteristic, and the hint of irony in what he's saying, it speaks to a kind of detachment.

It also means a certain level of joking snark humor, something Bones is known for.

And I get that. But it does speak to how he has a history of not being able to stand him, even if on a casual level that he's easy to be above on a professional or just decent person level.

[FaxModem1]

I'm not trying to say that they hate each other, and there's plenty of room to suggest that he's actually a decent individual. I've definitely seen him express respect for Spock's intelligence, but that also serves to contrast how at odds he is with Spock's demeanor.

In V when he says, "I liked him better before he died," there's plenty you can make out from that about his working relationship with Spock. I mean just the nuances of it, like partly him speaking about him in third person is characteristic, and the hint of irony in what he's saying, it speaks to a kind of detachment.

It also means a certain level of joking snark humor, something Bones is known for.

And I get that. But it does speak to how he has a history of not being able to stand him, even if on a casual level that he's easy to be above on a professional or just decent person level.

Well, they're rather close, having shared one body and all. If you're not allowed to joke when on vacation, then you're holding McCoy to too high a standard. It's the kind of joking you do with people you work with while on Leave. Especially if you really do care about that person. McCoy is taking the piss, and making a joke at Spock to Kirk.

I think you're reading too much into it. Especially as one movie later, they're working in-sync fine together doing surgery on a torpedo. Spock being utterly quiet while doing his job, McCoy making wisecracks about how much he hates Chang's constant monologuing and wish he'd just shut up. They may bicker at each other, but they're clearly a well oiled team used to each other's eccentricities.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm not trying to say that they hate each other, and there's plenty of room to suggest that he's actually a decent individual. I've definitely seen him express respect for Spock's intelligence, but that also serves to contrast how at odds he is with Spock's demeanor.

In V when he says, "I liked him better before he died," there's plenty you can make out from that about his working relationship with Spock. I mean just the nuances of it, like partly him speaking about him in third person is characteristic, and the hint of irony in what he's saying, it speaks to a kind of detachment.

It also means a certain level of joking snark humor, something Bones is known for.

And I get that. But it does speak to how he has a history of not being able to stand him, even if on a casual level that he's easy to be above on a professional or just decent person level.

Well, they're rather close, having shared one body and all. If you're not allowed to joke when on vacation, then you're holding McCoy to too high a standard. It's the kind of joking you do with people you work with while on Leave. Especially if you really do care about that person. McCoy is taking the piss, and making a joke at Spock to Kirk.

I think you're reading too much into it. Especially as one movie later, they're working in-sync fine together doing surgery on a torpedo. Spock being utterly quiet while doing his job, McCoy making wisecracks about how much he hates Chang's constant monologuing and wish he'd just shut up. They may bicker at each other, but they're clearly a well oiled team used to each other's eccentricities.

But I'm not saying he can't joke while camping lol. I'm not talking about a test of companionship, I'm talking about the complications that come about with him interacting with Spock. And yes, the two definitely have an established relationship through work, it's like having a drink at the bar after work with coworkers, and some of them still don't know them out of work. And yes, the events of Star Trek 2 were very influential on that relation. Still though, as part of his written character persona, he retained the same vector of sentiments that he had already had. And that seemingly doesn't compromise his integrity by professional or human decency standards.

[Deledrius]

Pulaski's attitude towards Data always felt weird to me as a kid, but I wasn't able to articulate why until I saw "Measure of a Man".

The thing abot MoaM was that although it was a great story on it's own, it didn't feel consistent with the greater series to me. It seemed implicit to me that between the Federation being made of hundreds (?) of different aliens, some quite exotic, and Starfleet being explicitly mandated to seek out more, with an emphasis on being open minded and enthusiastic about the more exotic ones, that they would already have a VERY robust and "fail-safe" legal concept of personhood. Moreover, it seemed implicit in Data's position as a Starfleet member that his personhood was already settled. You don't put rank pips on a turbolift.

There'd always be outliers when dealing with individuals, but individuals who were liable to be "guilty until proven innocent" about another being's personhood would be considered a problem by Federation cultural standards. A person who exhibited Pulaski's attitude would have been told to keep that shit to herself, and if she couldn't, her career would include reprimands, not prestigious diplomatic flagship assignments that might put her on the front lines of sensitive contact situations where she'd be expected to represent the Federation with her conduct.

I think that's a large part of why the Hologram rights stuff doesn't sit well with me in Voyager, even though I think they handled it well enough in the vacuum. If we had to go through it all once with Data, and that was already a strange contrivance, why are we doing it all again with something obviously comparable?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Pulaski's attitude towards Data always felt weird to me as a kid, but I wasn't able to articulate why until I saw "Measure of a Man".

The thing abot MoaM was that although it was a great story on it's own, it didn't feel consistent with the greater series to me. It seemed implicit to me that between the Federation being made of hundreds (?) of different aliens, some quite exotic, and Starfleet being explicitly mandated to seek out more, with an emphasis on being open minded and enthusiastic about the more exotic ones, that they would already have a VERY robust and "fail-safe" legal concept of personhood. Moreover, it seemed implicit in Data's position as a Starfleet member that his personhood was already settled. You don't put rank pips on a turbolift.

There'd always be outliers when dealing with individuals, but individuals who were liable to be "guilty until proven innocent" about another being's personhood would be considered a problem by Federation cultural standards. A person who exhibited Pulaski's attitude would have been told to keep that shit to herself, and if she couldn't, her career would include reprimands, not prestigious diplomatic flagship assignments that might put her on the front lines of sensitive contact situations where she'd be expected to represent the Federation with her conduct.

I think that's a large part of why the Hologram rights stuff doesn't sit well with me in Voyager, even though I think they handled it well enough in the vacuum. If we had to go through it all once with Data, and that was already a strange contrivance, why are we doing it all again with something obviously comparable?

You think copyright law is a game or something?

[Nealithi]

I think that's a large part of why the Hologram rights stuff doesn't sit well with me in Voyager, even though I think they handled it well enough in the vacuum. If we had to go through it all once with Data, and that was already a strange contrivance, why are we doing it all again with something obviously comparable?

Pulaksi had been written to shake things up that her actress disliked her. The Doctor, Moriarty and other holograms that could pass being sentient. Those were accidents. To borrow from Mass Effect a moment. But they were writing a VI, a simple program to perform a task. And it jumped to being an AI, a complex program capable to see beyond its duties. This was not simply artificial life. This was 'is it really doing what we think it is or is this a malfunction that merely appears, to a layman, as alive'. The Federation does not as an over culture want to have slaves. And they also don't want to do it accidentally either. So the trial could be seen as 'did we screwup?'

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Also for a story centered around the doctor it is sufficiently nuanced in his character arc. I'm not 100% on if you can say the same thing for TNG or DS9, but that was an aspect of Voyager; having episodes serve as character development for given officer(s) channeled through the prime focus of the episode's plot.

[Deledrius]

This was not simply artificial life. This was 'is it really doing what we think it is or is this a malfunction that merely appears, to a layman, as alive'. The Federation does not as an over culture want to have slaves. And they also don't want to do it accidentally either. So the trial could be seen as 'did we screwup?'

You're right, I think it was just close enough and not really acknowledged that left me feeling like it was both a retread and underhandled. But that's also the fault of waiting until the very end of the show to bring it up, and then doing prequels ever since. Not sure I'd want it, but the lack of follow-up doesn't help either.

[Koshundheit]

Also for a story centered around the doctor it is sufficiently nuanced in his character arc. I'm not 100% on if you can say the same thing for TNG or DS9, but that was an aspect of Voyager; having episodes serve as character development for given officer(s) channeled through the prime focus of the episode's plot.

Huh? DS9 is widely regarding as the Trek show that has the most character development via the prime focus of the episode's plot. Virtually every featured character winds up substantially different than when the show began. It is one of the things that makes it great. While there is some Voyager I enjoy, sadly Doc and Seven are a few of the only featured characters who get much character development.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Also for a story centered around the doctor it is sufficiently nuanced in his character arc. I'm not 100% on if you can say the same thing for TNG or DS9, but that was an aspect of Voyager; having episodes serve as character development for given officer(s) channeled through the prime focus of the episode's plot.

Huh? DS9 is widely regarding as the Trek show that has the most character development via the prime focus of the episode's plot. Virtually every featured character winds up substantially different than when the show began. It is one of the things that makes it great. While there is some Voyager I enjoy, sadly Doc and Seven are a few of the only featured characters who get much character development.

This isn't really at odds with what I was saying. And I wasn't trying to compare Voyager to DS9 or TNG at all really.

If you're just trying to affirm that DS9 is the double whopper of character development then that'll be dually noted with appreciation and I will keep it in mind for later discourse purposes.