Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

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Beastro
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by Beastro »

TrueMetis wrote:How will it cut into people's autonomy?
Because very many people like to drive cars to drive cars and like to drive them despite the deaths they cause.

The automobile is an invent that is a wonderful example how people instill symbolism and meaning into human creations. When it comes to cars it's the freedom to do what you want and go where you want up to a defined safety boundary that self-driving cars will change.

The fear I have is that the same old fire control arguments will be re-purposed for them, that a standard self-driving car will be declared the saftey standard, that people will begin to demonize more excessive vehicles and begin to work down the line over all piloted vehicles.

To sum it up "You don't NEED an SUV! You don't NEED a sports car! Look at all the deaths they cause!" Failing to realize that we're not saftey fixated societies, we balance safety with personal freedom and the price we pay for it. One ca see that in the way addictive substances are handled today. We effectively accept that whatever harm they may cause is worth the price of allowing people access to them when alcohol and vehicles are some the biggest killers (often when mixed).

One can also see that over the gun debate in the US when by and large, Americans are happy with fire arms despite the death toll they produce.

ATM the safety obsessed cannot attack vehicles because there is no replacement for the human pilot, once they become common I foresee them being quickly treated the way firearms are today.
Okay, here's a devil's-advocate counterpoint to the classic Sci-Fi "AI goes crazy and kills us all!!!" trope: what if AI should replace us?
That is applying meaning to life in a transcendent way that is practically religious.

For me it would be a bunch of lights on but no one would be home. Machines are living beings and never will, anything they do with will be a machine going about its motions imitating life without there anything. If you want to get a gist of what I mean, play Thief 2 and thing about how the machines in it act.
but between climate change and the ever-present threat of someone setting off World War III over North Korea or something similar, perhaps it's just the case that we are living in the twilight of our species.
None of those are going to kill us. Change climate will screw over civilization as know it but it will not kill us off.

Same goes with weapons of mass destruction with damage they can cause, like the fraud committed over Nuclear Winter by Sagan, being overblown by people wanting them to be more dangerous than they are.

About the only effective means of killing off Mankind would be to release series of global pandemics to not only cut the population down, but do so quickly enough that the survivors wouldn't have time to gather together and begin reproducing again. One pandemic wouldn't do it, you'd need at least three.

Problem is, if you're going to shred modern civilization like that and you're able to stay safe as you keep making new ones, how are you going to deliver and diffuse an agent over a thinned population where modern travel most likely cease when the first one reached critical levels?

About the only way you're going to kill us off is if you emulate the patterns of extinction events over history where multiple disasters happen with many doing so in a sustained manner, sustained over centuries or thousands of years in the same way the eruption of traps over extended periods of time pressured Permian life while other things did what they could to finish them of.
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by ScreamingDoom »

Beastro wrote: For me any sort of advanced, autonomous AI is a sociopath lacking God knows how many years of social evolution that has produced the make up of our.
This is a bizarre position to take. Why would that be the case? These are machines, designed to do specific jobs! Why would such a machine care about anything other than its job?

To be sure, such a machine could be abused, but it wouldn't be of its own volition. It would be because some human abused a tool!
People need to stop looking on machines as just different kinds of humans and more like a strange animal, and like any sort of animal when it threatens human life the appropriate response is to destroy it.
No, people need to look at machines as machines. Your computer isn't out to get you. That self-driving car isn't biding its time to run you over. Your electric shaver isn't cackling madly in anticipation of ripping off your face.

THEY. ARE. MACHINES. They do what we design them to do, how we design them to do it! They don't get happy, they don't get sad, they don't have instincts or self-preservation or hunger or anything that might drive them to do the things you seem to think they will do. We can mimic some of those things, sure, but it's not the same thing as actually having those motivations -- and they have to be specifically designed to do that in the first place! You will never see a self-driving car with a desire to kill all humans because such a desire wouldn't be part of the design. Their behaviour is always understandable (if not always obvious) and if there is a malfunction, there is always a rational, logical reason for it.
TrueMetis
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by TrueMetis »

Beastro wrote:
TrueMetis wrote:How will it cut into people's autonomy?
Because very many people like to drive cars to drive cars and like to drive them despite the deaths they cause.

The automobile is an invent that is a wonderful example how people instill symbolism and meaning into human creations. When it comes to cars it's the freedom to do what you want and go where you want up to a defined safety boundary that self-driving cars will change.

The fear I have is that the same old fire control arguments will be re-purposed for them, that a standard self-driving car will be declared the saftey standard, that people will begin to demonize more excessive vehicles and begin to work down the line over all piloted vehicles.

To sum it up "You don't NEED an SUV! You don't NEED a sports car! Look at all the deaths they cause!" Failing to realize that we're not saftey fixated societies, we balance safety with personal freedom and the price we pay for it. One ca see that in the way addictive substances are handled today. We effectively accept that whatever harm they may cause is worth the price of allowing people access to them when alcohol and vehicles are some the biggest killers (often when mixed).

One can also see that over the gun debate in the US when by and large, Americans are happy with fire arms despite the death toll they produce.

ATM the safety obsessed cannot attack vehicles because there is no replacement for the human pilot, once they become common I foresee them being quickly treated the way firearms are today.
Your making some assumptions about self-driving cars that I don't think are warranted. I can give the assumption that in some places only self-driving cars will be allowed, cities most likely, but it's hardly likely that self-driving will be required in all areas. You want to go on a road trip or off roading using manual drive, there's very little reason to think that you won't be allowed to do that. There will be plenty of places to drive cars to drive cars, and there would be no reason to restrict where you can go in a car beyond what restrictions are already in place. This loss of autonomy you are concerned about is so superficial as to be irrelevant and the balance of safety and personal freedom with a self driving car is far better than what the current set up is. A tiny, effectively non-existent for a lot of people, loss of personal freedom, and a giant increase to safety.

Then again I'm Canadian so I probably see things different, cause when I look at the US gun debate all I can think is "you motherfuckers literally cannot do a cost-benefit analysis to save you lives."
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

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I have done a good bit of research about the state of, "Self Driving Vehicles: What Do They Mean" in the context of society. And yes, there are lots of social factors that go into the use of cars as a status symbol and as a right of passage. Self driving cars will be creeping in around the edges of society in the coming decades.

Taxi service, shipping, buses, and shuttles will all be self driving in 25 years. Some of the projections we did for our research to the state said that all cars will be self driving by 2060. It will happen slowly at first, and then the last 40% will be forced to change over in a very short period of time. The levels of safety and efficiency are so substantive that to not use the tech would be irresponsible.

That doesn't mean all other vehicles types will disappear, there will be self driving moving vans, flat beds, and rescue vehicles, but we'll live in a world in which car accidents are no longer a measurable percentage of deaths in America. And probably a world in which pollution from cars being stuck in traffic and traffic lights will be recalled in the way people remember pay phones.
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by StrangeDevice »

This might sound a bit weird, but "The Ultimate Computer" weirdly feels like it would have made a good series finale for TOS. Anyone else get that feeling from it?
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by Maximara »

lsgreg wrote:My big observation: How is McCoy a better ship's counselor than actual ship counselors from other Trek series?
I think it was largely to do with the one main example, Deanna Troi, was not well written. Instead of using her effectively they had her state what should be been obvious. It even became a joke:

Deanna Troi: I sense hostility
Captain Picard: (sarcastically) Oh that why they are firing at us. And here I thought it was their form of greeting.

To be fair to the actress it wasn't her fault as one can see with her portrayal of Demona in the Gargoyles series.
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by Rocketboy1313 »

StrangeDevice wrote:This might sound a bit weird, but "The Ultimate Computer" weirdly feels like it would have made a good series finale for TOS. Anyone else get that feeling from it?
Yes, I can see that and I agree with it.
The thesis statement that "technology has its place but can't replace humanity" is a good one that fits with the adventurous nature of "Star Trek".
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by Durandal_1707 »

Maximara wrote:
lsgreg wrote:My big observation: How is McCoy a better ship's counselor than actual ship counselors from other Trek series?
I think it was largely to do with the one main example, Deanna Troi, was not well written. Instead of using her effectively they had her state what should be been obvious. It even became a joke:

Deanna Troi: I sense hostility
Captain Picard: (sarcastically) Oh that why they are firing at us. And here I thought it was their form of greeting.

To be fair to the actress it wasn't her fault as one can see with her portrayal of Demona in the Gargoyles series.
The thing that irritated me about Troi (especially since we're still in this AI-themed thread!) is that she never just told Data that he was pretty damn awesome as he was and didn't need to be human! If anyone ever needed a self-esteem boost, it was him. How many times would that ship have blown up if it hadn't been for his unique abilities? But no, he was always obsessed over trying to conform, to "fit in" with the group, instead of embracing his individuality. Data was already the smartest and the most lovable person on the ship, and he didn't need to change; the others should have accepted him as he was (and for the most part, they did). But he always had this weird self-loathing that Troi never said a damn thing about.

This really bugged me.
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by Rocketboy1313 »

Durandal_1707 wrote: The thing that irritated me about Troi (especially since we're still in this AI-themed thread!) is that she never just told Data that he was pretty damn awesome as he was and didn't need to be human! If anyone ever needed a self-esteem boost, it was him. How many times would that ship have blown up if it hadn't been for his unique abilities? But no, he was always obsessed over trying to conform, to "fit in" with the group, instead of embracing his individuality. Data was already the smartest and the most lovable person on the ship, and he didn't need to change; the others should have accepted him as he was (and for the most part, they did). But he always had this weird self-loathing that Troi never said a damn thing about.

This really bugged me.
Woah woah woah!

You're telling me that having a character do her job without utilizing the gimmick of mild telepathic power would have allowed her to grow as a functional story element in the narrative and endear her to the audience? The hell you say.
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Re: Star Trek (TOS): The Ultimate Computer

Post by Revolverman »

Durandal_1707 wrote:
Maximara wrote:
lsgreg wrote:My big observation: How is McCoy a better ship's counselor than actual ship counselors from other Trek series?
I think it was largely to do with the one main example, Deanna Troi, was not well written. Instead of using her effectively they had her state what should be been obvious. It even became a joke:

Deanna Troi: I sense hostility
Captain Picard: (sarcastically) Oh that why they are firing at us. And here I thought it was their form of greeting.

To be fair to the actress it wasn't her fault as one can see with her portrayal of Demona in the Gargoyles series.
The thing that irritated me about Troi (especially since we're still in this AI-themed thread!) is that she never just told Data that he was pretty damn awesome as he was and didn't need to be human! If anyone ever needed a self-esteem boost, it was him. How many times would that ship have blown up if it hadn't been for his unique abilities? But no, he was always obsessed over trying to conform, to "fit in" with the group, instead of embracing his individuality. Data was already the smartest and the most lovable person on the ship, and he didn't need to change; the others should have accepted him as he was (and for the most part, they did). But he always had this weird self-loathing that Troi never said a damn thing about.

This really bugged me.
That was literally built into Data's code by Soong. Lots of people in the course of TNG told him that. I doubt Troi telling him would have done a thing.
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