TOS: Patterns of Force

[Yukaphile]

Well, my only source of information on this topic comes from the History Place. Can they be a little biased?

[Yukaphile]

Of course, it's probably more "comforting" for the victorious nations today to try and rewrite history to pretend, "No, we didn't contribute to the Nazi phenomenon by driving them to starvation, we helped them to rebuild!" It's the same thing most conquering nations thought back then, when crimes against humanity were swept under the rug and no one today can admit to them. Pride and clinging to old notions of victory and the past.

[Fianna]

How do you even recreate Nazi Germany without the intense hatred of an Other? It's not like persecution of Jews/Romanis/Communists/gays/etc. was a side-project the Nazi leaders pursued once they got into power. It was kinda their main selling point.

[Yukaphile]

Simple. Chuck described this in some of his videos. Another way a Fascist police state comes to power is a simple need for law and order. The other doesn't necessarily have to be based on religious or ethnic background, but a desire to maintain... well, something like in the Galactic Empire. Rule through fear to keep people in line so there's less dissent. Reminds me of Light's world from Death Note. It had order, but little freedom. At least, so I hear. And seeing someone dragged out of their house in the middle of the night, well, it's still human nature to blame people for their own suffering, even today. No doubt you'll think they did something to bring it on themselves, and go out of your way not to step out of line and maintain the order.

[G-Man]

I find this an interesting episode. 20 years after WW2, the majority of the people who made it having fought in the war, and here we have an ep where an historian is crowing about how awesome the Nazi's were. And whilst he does turn out to be wrong, imo the ep implies that it wasn't his views that are wrong but rather his execution of those views, as if a smarter man could have worked out the kinks. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall in the writers' room for this one.

And as an aside, this ep shows why Kirk is made of awesome. The man barely blinks whilst being whipped. You want something to compare to why Pine!Kirk is such a let down? Here it is.

Of course, the Nazis as the super-efficient ultimate bad guys plays into U.S. pride in fighting and defeating them. No surprise that the generation that fought WWII would like to make the enemy seem as dangerous and hard-to-defeat as possible. Not to mention that the war was probably more the USSR defeating Germany than the other allies put together, at least on the battlefield.

[Yukaphile]

Well, how do you explain the romanticism then? Clearly SS-inspired characters or organizations from Doctor Who of the same contemporary era, like "The Keys of Marinus" and Sarah Kingdom.

[CharlesPhipps]

I find this an interesting episode. 20 years after WW2, the majority of the people who made it having fought in the war, and here we have an ep where an historian is crowing about how awesome the Nazi's were. And whilst he does turn out to be wrong, imo the ep implies that it wasn't his views that are wrong but rather his execution of those views, as if a smarter man could have worked out the kinks. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall in the writers' room for this one.

Nimoy and Shatner were/are at least ethnically Jewish, too. So when you hear Spock say how far national socialism had gotten Germany, I imagine some interesting thoughts were going through Nimoy's head.

I think Nimoy has been clear he considered it a strongly anti-Nazi episode as did Shatner. It's a fan projection that it has anything good to say about Nazis other than the idea of Germanic efficiency. For the audience the fact it's a murderous depotism is enough to make them bad guys.

You don't need them to be inefficient (though they were) to be repulsive.

[Yukaphile]

Well, people should learn to separate the Germans from the Nazis, as hard as that can sometimes be. Now we got American Nazis and I've heard of 'em in Peru. Obviously, it's not something they have a monopoly on anymore.

[clearspira]

Of course, it's probably more "comforting" for the victorious nations today to try and rewrite history to pretend, "No, we didn't contribute to the Nazi phenomenon by driving them to starvation, we helped them to rebuild!" It's the same thing most conquering nations thought back then, when crimes against humanity were swept under the rug and no one today can admit to them. Pride and clinging to old notions of victory and the past.

History place isn't biased... its full of crap. That is the exact opposite of what happened. And like I said, Britain was in a terrible state after WW2. If we refused them food it was because we didn't have any food either. There is a reason why West Germany prospered and East Germany didn't beyond communism. And one of the reasons we helped rebuild Germany is precisely because we learned the lessons of the past. 27 years passed between the end of WW1 and and the end of WW2 don't forget - thats nearly a whole generation.

[CharlesPhipps]

I remember when I first saw this episode, that I just couldn't believe the idea that a historian would see any real good in fascism in general and Nazism in particular.

David Irving.

Again, I work in academia and there's a nonstop stream of apologia for everything from the Borgias to the Confederacy. People love the idea that brutal warmongering societies are inherently "cool" and more awesome than peaceful ones. I am confused, really, at the idea anyone could have gone to college and not been exposed to at least ONE apologist.