TOS: Patterns of Force

[BrianTheGinger]

I find it kind of weird to talk about Zeons, though.

I keep thinking of Gundam.

And now I have the mental image of Kirk piloting the RX-78-2. Which is an awesome visual, thanks.

[Yukaphile]

What would Picard have then? The TARDIS?

...

OMG, that makes so much sense!

[jadenova]

Zeon? Interesting. It's just one letter away from being Zion a word associated with Jews.

[CmdrKing]

I guess there's the question of how far Gill's national socialism could diverge from historical national socialism and still be considered national socialism, but only a few of the 25 points of the National Socialist German Workers' Party mentioned race, and only one mentioned Jews. The others just divide Germans from non-Germans. For instance, points 9 through 15 are:

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently, we demand:
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore, we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

From Wikipedia

About what you might expect from an ethno-nationalist system with a strong socialist bent. Authoritarian, certainly, but at that point it didn't call for exterminating anyone or any kind of ethnic cleansing. They were anti-semitic, but "kill all jews we can kill, everywhere" didn't come into play early on.

Untrue even within that quoted section.
“Every citizen must productively work physically or mentally”? That’s eugenics for “unperson and eliminate the disabled”

[Darth Wedgius]

I guess there's the question of how far Gill's national socialism could diverge from historical national socialism and still be considered national socialism, but only a few of the 25 points of the National Socialist German Workers' Party mentioned race, and only one mentioned Jews. The others just divide Germans from non-Germans. For instance, points 9 through 15 are:

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently, we demand:
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore, we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

From Wikipedia

About what you might expect from an ethno-nationalist system with a strong socialist bent. Authoritarian, certainly, but at that point it didn't call for exterminating anyone or any kind of ethnic cleansing. They were anti-semitic, but "kill all jews we can kill, everywhere" didn't come into play early on.

Untrue even within that quoted section.
“Every citizen must productively work physically or mentally”? That’s eugenics for “unperson and eliminate the disabled”

First, that's your interpretation based on how you want to interpret it. Second, it's not eugenics when disability can be caused by any number of factors, most not congenital. Third, it's not racist, and so not germane to the point I was discussing.

[Rodan56]

This is what has always bothered me about how people percieve Nazi Germany, the idea that it worked. It didn't, it really, REALLY didn't. It was the most self-defeating form of government in history and what's really scary is that it became such a threat to so many people so quickly.

This plays into way too much alt-history fiction as well. If only for want of a nail they could've won the War, except no. You have to do a lot more to give Germany a win than say pump a bunch of cool technology into their science divisions. You have to take into account how the Allies would respond for one and if any of it would be nearly as effective as you think.

More important, Hitler's method of organizing his military was dysfunctional to the point of maddness. Where various groups, organizations and sub-divisions had control over separate functions and needed approval from so many conflicting department heads that they basically hogtied themselves. D-Day worked out the way it did because of said dysfunction.

It's scary in my mind to see so many people think that Nazi Germany could ever be as succesful as it is depicted in alt-history. To the point it almost seems like wish fulfillment. No one ever wants to actually think about those ramifications though, its just cool to a bunch of people to have Nazis invading America without properly working out how feasible that is in any given scenario.

So Spock's statement is, as Chuck says, has largely been disproven. But so many people still seem to believe it and not just neo-nazis either. People who hate the Nazis buy into it too. And I think our media is lesser for it. The Third Reich was a colossal failure of a state even before the Russians rolled into Berlin. But the allure of their early successes is so strong we seem to be easily tricked into believing they were close to world domination.

They weren't.

Anyway, this has been a long way of saying I don't like the new Wolfenstein games. Thank you for coming to my Ted-Talk.

[CharlesPhipps]

This is what has always bothered me about how people percieve Nazi Germany, the idea that it worked. It didn't, it really, REALLY didn't. It was the most self-defeating form of government in history and what's really scary is that it became such a threat to so many people so quickly.

Does this really defeat the show's message? I really think the efficiency element is utterly irrelevant.

John Gill believes it.

Except, he's WRONG.

Grossly, irredeemably, completely wrong.

Anyway, this has been a long way of saying I don't like the new Wolfenstein games. Thank you for coming to my Ted-Talk.

The Nazis won in Wolfenstein because they stole Jewish wizards' super-science that included nukes, cloning, space travel and robots.

[CmdrKing]

First, that's your interpretation based on how you want to interpret it. Second, it's not eugenics when disability can be caused by any number of factors, most not congenital. Third, it's not racist, and so not germane to the point I was discussing.

It’s language that implies excluding a group. Later codified into forced sterilization and eventually “euthanization” in law. Estimates put it around a quarter million. https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the- ... ed-people/
Decoding Nazi dogwhistles isn’t hard, we know how the story ends.

[Darth Wedgius]

Anyway, this has been a long way of saying I don't like the new Wolfenstein games. Thank you for coming to my Ted-Talk.

The Nazis won in Wolfenstein because they stole Jewish wizards' super-science that included nukes, cloning, space travel and robots.

Wait, space travel and nukes? Gill was basing his society on these Nazis all along!

[Darth Wedgius]

First, that's your interpretation based on how you want to interpret it. Second, it's not eugenics when disability can be caused by any number of factors, most not congenital. Third, it's not racist, and so not germane to the point I was discussing.

It’s language that implies excluding a group. Later codified into forced sterilization and eventually “euthanization” in law. Estimates put it around a quarter million. https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the- ... ed-people/
Decoding Nazi dogwhistles isn’t hard, we know how the story ends.

All laws have languages that excludes certain groups. This case is still not racism, and still your interpretation of the "dogwhistle."