TOS: Patterns of Force

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I remember when I first saw this episode, that I just couldn't believe the idea that a historian would see any real good in fascism in general and Nazism in particular.

David Irving.

Again, I work in academia and there's a nonstop stream of apologia for everything from the Borgias to the Confederacy. People love the idea that brutal warmongering societies are inherently "cool" and more awesome than peaceful ones. I am confused, really, at the idea anyone could have gone to college and not been exposed to at least ONE apologist.

You think Gil was an apologist though? It's one thing to look back on the Confederacy or Nazis (a nice bookending on the scale of "yeah they were bad") and subvert the historical judgement, but looking forward and saying "I can be a benevolent state director and not fall victim to the same perils," is a little different I feel.

[pilight]

Plenty of people then and now are ignorant enough to believe you can have the "good" parts of Nazism without the bad.

Melakon using Phrenology, the favorite pseudo-science of racists everywhere, to demonstrate Spock's inferiority is a direct indictment of the kind of people attracted to the Nazi philosophy.

[Admiral X]

This is part of why I had a hard time going along with the episode in some ways, because it's one thing to look on some aspects of a past regime or civilization with admiration (say technological prowess or battlefield tactics), but what Gil did went beyond that, especially if they wanted to pass him off as having good intentions. He set himself up as Der Führer of a Nazi regime, complete with obsession about genetic superiority. So, yeah, it kind of makes me wonder if he wasn't an apologist of some kind and had just managed to hide it somehow. I mean, he recreated it down to the death's head logos. That doesn't really say "I tried to make a kinder, gentler form of Nazism but its inherent evil reared its ugly head" to me.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Plenty of people then and now are ignorant enough to believe you can have the "good" parts of Nazism without the bad.

Melakon using Phrenology, the favorite pseudo-science of racists everywhere, to demonstrate Spock's inferiority is a direct indictment of the kind of people attracted to the Nazi philosophy.

With Nazi'ism, Stalinism, or Fascism I don't think it's a matter of being perilous. This is what I was starting to get at with CmdrKing, it's not like these regimes just kinda slipped up or dragged society into the mud with some badly structured policy, they paid attention to the onset of post WWI and rolled out their own carpets for direct exploitation. It's not like you set out to become a benevolent dictator then come to an impasse of "alright now next most considerate step is to murder this 5 million people over here and we're home free."

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

This is part of why I had a hard time going along with the episode in some ways, because it's one thing to look on some aspects of a past regime or civilization with admiration (say technological prowess or battlefield tactics), but what Gil did went beyond that, especially if they wanted to pass him off as having good intentions. He set himself up as Der Führer of a Nazi regime, complete with obsession about genetic superiority. So, yeah, it kind of makes me wonder if he wasn't an apologist of some kind and had just managed to hide it somehow. I mean, he recreated it down to the death's head logos. That doesn't really say "I tried to make a kinder, gentler form of Nazism but its inherent evil reared its ugly head" to me.

This kinda got touched on in the review but didn't really go where I would have expected. The nazi symbol is as we say loaded with our own interpretation based on historical events. I'd hope that's easily understood by anyone here, though if I'm not clear then I apologize. Therein lies stretch of speculation that an episode like this is rolling with. It's easy to say that the swastika has Hindu roots (like the Aryan peoples I believe), but it still gives you a juxtaposition when you not only consider it in a neutral context but see it in practice, even down to the goofy straight leg march pattern of the troops. Nazism's of the most volatile things in modern history to the point that this episode goes from begging the question of its symbolism to flat out pedantic exhibition that all but implicates someone, and imo it manages to do that at the same time.

This of course could only come out of the 60's. It's mostly just a matter of the writers and producers not being the most subtle with their postmodern turn-something-on-its-head backdrop. And it's not as if it's particularly nuanced; we don't see the failings of this intention of a benevolent society or anything, we're just presented with Nazi's as we understand them post WWII.

[Robovski]

Yeah, the skulls are a bit far for good intentions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

But yeah, access to costumes and sets. Much like the gangsters.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I don't think the skulls invalidate anything really.

And also, I know I tend to be a bit complicit with threads going off topic, but can we try to refrain from talking only about Nazis in this thread as we do with all the others? kthx.

[Dragon Ball Fan]

I don't think Gill put any xenophobia into his version of Nazism, I'm pretty sure that was all Melakon.

[Zoinksberg]

I don't know if Nazism can exist without xenophobia. The ideas behind it are centered upon "we are the pinnacle of [humanity] and all others are below us." You can probably imagine a scenario where someone comes up with that in an altruistic manner to help those they deem inferior but it is still rooted in racism and will lead to outright xenophobia. If you inherently believe one race is lesser than another then you don't want to mix the waters lest you lessen your race. I really don't think Gill had any way to make this happen without finding that unity of "us versus them" and stoking it.

Was he attempting to do it for good intent? Perhaps, but "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions" is a popular phrase for a reason.

[SuccubusYuri]

This is part of why I had a hard time going along with the episode in some ways, because it's one thing to look on some aspects of a past regime or civilization with admiration (say technological prowess or battlefield tactics), but what Gil did went beyond that, especially if they wanted to pass him off as having good intentions. He set himself up as Der Führer of a Nazi regime, complete with obsession about genetic superiority. So, yeah, it kind of makes me wonder if he wasn't an apologist of some kind and had just managed to hide it somehow. I mean, he recreated it down to the death's head logos. That doesn't really say "I tried to make a kinder, gentler form of Nazism but its inherent evil reared its ugly head" to me.

*queue up the Dilbert clip* "Alright, I said smart...not creative."

The most generous I can see is he had a set point where he wanted to throw the off-switch, and thought he could, but the mini-coup happened before that set point. Sort of a weird..."I'll not interfere as much by roleplaying along with these people until I can get them all back on track!"

In-universe it seems to be something of an accepted possibility, Spock doesn't disagree logically with the premise other than the fact the Prime Directive is also a good idea.

This of course could only come out of the 60's. It's mostly just a matter of the writers and producers not being the most subtle with their postmodern turn-something-on-its-head backdrop. And it's not as if it's particularly nuanced; we don't see the failings of this intention of a benevolent society or anything, we're just presented with Nazi's as we understand them post WWII.

The first half of your statement is contradicted by the second half...doesn't that conclusion infer that there AREN'T any "objectively good" nazis?