TOS: Patterns of Force

[CharlesPhipps]

Gill could come from that same light, growing up in a world where fascism is a distant memory and looking at it through rose tinted glasses. Even as a historian it's not entirely a stretch, how many today would view colonialism as something that was used for bad but in a better world could be used to bring good? I have been guilty of that thought, if I'm being honest. His biggest failure though would be that he didn't learn from the past, something a historian should never be caught doing.

I mentioned it earlier but kind of breezed past it but there's a real life phenomenon in academia where you actually tend to develop a fondness for whatever you study--almost no matter what the subject may be. Many historians who become deeply immersed in the culture of a society end up trying to defend its practices or put the most positive spin on them.

But yes, I could honestly see Gill as an armchair military leader who thinks himself above the temptations of power.

It could also simply be like, "Well, I'm not a racist against Jews or homosexuals or whatnot--they don't even exist on this world--so clearly Nazism poses no threat once I've united the world under one banner of duty, loyalty, and honor."

You could also argue that there was probably a lot of resentment bubbling under the surface which John Gill's attempts to unite people didn't remotely address. It doesn't go away when you force a rule over someone (as, and this is with complete irony) the Soviets forcing people to get along did. It just bubbled to the surface as Melakon's hate seems to have done.

[CharlesPhipps]

Or at least something that indicated that the Federation was taking steps to rectify Gill's colossal error in judgement. Not quite sure how they'd do that but it'd be better then the "aww, it'll sort itself out" ending we actually got.

Maybe, "The Prime Directive no longer applies due to the level of...interference. I'll ask the Federation to send teachers and historians to help sort this out. Perhaps to show where the roots of this really came from and what we learned from it."

I think Spock's line could have been altered without changing the theme of the episode too much.

"The Nazis came to power at a time of great chaos. Perhaps John Gill thought he could use that imagery and terror to bring order to a chaotic planet. Maybe he believed he could control it."

"But he couldn't, could he, Spock?"

"So it appears."

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Even with Death of the Author though, aren't you able to factor in contemporary production efforts that are considerably dated by today's standards, not to mention the now defunct viewpoint of the writers regarding sentiments such as the Nazi regime being considered efficient?

Not sure about contemporary production values but what I've had time to think about why it always bothers me (as the efficiency thing is usually the most talked about thing in reviews of this episode) is that I don't think what's on display backs up the statement by Spock--which is merely how Gill would percieve it.

The Nazis were a horribly inefficient society prone to infighting and self-destructive behaviors. However, the fact is that all of that is on display in the episode. Gill has been overthrown by Melakon and Melakon gets overthrown by the Chairman of the Party at the end of the episode. We also see that the Resistance Mole turned in her own father. They're also going to launch a massively economically draining attack on the Zeons that might only succeed because they're a pacifist people.

In short, while the Germanic efficiency trope is cited in the episode, what we see is a highly chaotic and dysfunctional one.

Which the writers would know to be accurate despite historians because--well, it was written by people who knew a fair bit as veterans as well as people who'd lived through it as Germany's opponents.

Fair point about the efficiency trope. I've actually not really seen it as convincing to any respect just for the points you come to here.

Just for clarification I suppose, I have a hunch (of my own, I suppose) that the producers were trying to play up the loaded symbolism of, say, the swastika. Which was what Chuck brought up in the review. So for speculative sake, Gil could have been rocking it until he was overthrown, in which case everything maleficent he genuinely wasn't responsible for even in the political outline he orchestrated (save for PD violation). Which to be honest I'd have to say would be very convenient for the producers. And then that just leaves the blatant obscenity. Not quite as damning as you've been putting it, but something along the lines of some animator trying to get away with as much sexual innuendo as utterly possible in a child's programming for the adults to enjoy... and then just maybe topping it off a bit after that.

That last part is more about Gill under consideration of someone from Starfleet, and isn't so much about the producers of Trek. Though now that I think about it...

[Maximara]

The thing is John Gill had to be a total moron with regards to history if he believed that Nazi Germany was "the most efficient state Earth every knew" which had been totally ripped to shreds in the 1960 book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

Some other reviews of this episode:

Star Trek – Patterns of Force (Review) -

Star Trek Re-Watch: “Patterns of Force”

A key point to remember is Starfleet has only been out of contact with Gill for six months but what we see should have taken years to achieve so how long has he been mucking around with this planet?

As one of the reviews above said: "It wasn’t efficiency but ruthlessness that enabled Hitler’s rise to power. Murdering or imprisoning each and every political enemy and exploiting and validating deep-seated xenophobia tends to consolidate power pretty damn effectively whether or not you have a team of industrial engineers creating a flawlessly organized state. The idea that a history professor didn’t understand or appreciate the complexity of that historical movement is unbelievable."

The ironic thing is the term "Dictator" was an actual office of the Roman Republic. When things broke down and nothing could get done the Roman Senate would appoint a dictator who was immune from all of his actions. And this is the stunning thing: after 6 months the Dictator would relinquish his power...and they did for nearly 500 years. So even the end message the writers went with is not entirely true.

On another side note if you really look at what TOS says about WWII (City on the Edge of Forever) their version had to be drastically different from ours. The Alternate History board thread "Edith Keeler Lives: A Brief History" tried to flesh out the alternate reality McCoy created but it runs into a key Catch 22: Work on the German atomic bomb and V2 weapons only started after the United States entered the war. In anything even remotely like OTL you have a curious Catch-22 situation: a more successful Nazi Germany thanks to less US involvement would mean delaying both the German A-bomb (not really viable until 1948 under the best of conditions) and the V2 to carry it. So delaying US involvement in WWII essentially delays the very weapons that supposedly lets Germany win the war!

Also the V2 simply didn't have the ability to carry an A-bomb...that is why Stalin put so many resources into duplicating the Superfortress instead of simply copying the V2 and slapping an A-bomb on top of it.

[CharlesPhipps]

Given what happens, does anyone believe the writers actually thought Nazism was a good idea?

Mind you there's a weird habit I've noticed that efficiency is held up as the highest good.

Like, "they're murdering people in the streets but it's alright as long as they're the fastest most competent murderers they can be."

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Like, "they're murdering people in the streets but it's alright as long as they're the fastest most competent murderers they can be."

That's absurd!

Given what happens, does anyone believe the writers actually thought Nazism was a good idea?

Not really caught up on the current discussion fully, but that's not really my position.

[MightyDavidson]

Given what happens, does anyone believe the writers actually thought Nazism was a good idea?

Mind you there's a weird habit I've noticed that efficiency is held up as the highest good.

Like, "they're murdering people in the streets but it's alright as long as they're the fastest most competent murderers they can be."

I don't think they thought it was a good idea. Though they may have had to try and find some positive spin to put on it, in order for the story to work as written. Portraying Nazism accurately would make John Gill a lunatic who'd never be sent on a mission of this sort and it would say rather nasty things about the Federation itself. It's a plot that ought to have been thought through WAY more then it was, is my point.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

I've always loved Spock, but one thing you eventually realize is that a lot of the things he says over the course of the show are either only half right or flat-out wrong. It's Spock's confirmation of Gill's view that's the problem, since Spock's opinions on historical matters are usually taken by the show as being correct.

Even so, I think the episode gets too much heat for the "Germany as a model of efficiency spoiled by racism and tyranny" blunder. On the one hand, it seems rather unfair to blame the Trek writers in particular for putting forward an argument that was pretty commonplace at the time. And really, there's always someone on the fringe arguing for an alternative view, so the fact that Gill thinks of the Germans as an efficient society isn't really a blunder. As I said, Spock's confirmation is a bit of a problem, but one that gets focused on too much.

Secondly, a lot of modern day reviewers don't seem to be accounting for the fact that in-universe these characters would have much more emotional distance than we have today. Today, Nazis as the villains has become deeply ingrained into western culture, as has the numerous flaws in that society. The fact that some have continued to sympathize with Hitler has reinforced that even further, which is part of the reason why some give this episode a hard time. It seems ridiculous to us that the Nazis would be idolized, but it's easy to forget that we regularly idolize dictators and tyrants when their actions seem further removed from everyday life.

The thing is that common knowledge can very well be deeply mistaken, as evidenced by the view put forward by the episode itself, and even historians aren't immune to that. With Nazi Germany being over three hundred years in the past, it's understandable why someone like John Gill would not have been outraged by the wrongs committed by an "ancient" society. And that's part of the (good) lesson of the episode- Gill's "professional" detachment and callousness blinded him to the fundamental moral issues.

[SuccubusYuri]

Not really caught up on the current discussion fully, but that's not really my position.

Weren't you just saying a couple pages ago that the writers were acting post-modern? A post-modernist would say the Nazis are not inherently good or bad, it's the context that made them bad. Unless you've intentionally obfuscated your position to such a degree that does seem to be the side you were adopting.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Not really caught up on the current discussion fully, but that's not really my position.

Weren't you just saying a couple pages ago that the writers were acting post-modern? A post-modernist would say the Nazis are not inherently good or bad, it's the context that made them bad. Unless you've intentionally obfuscated your position to such a degree that does seem to be the side you were adopting.

Again, I was talking about symbolic emblems that is Nazism such as the swastika and how it's viewed socially, particularly in modern context.

The National Socialism political outline that the writers were channeling that led to the so-called efficiency wasn't what I was talking about. I had never really heard about that, but am finding more context to what the writers might have been getting at. Namely the idea that the social system could have worked without the racial scapegoating etc is at odds with modern reality, and it seems plausible that Trek writers were drinking that koolaid back then.

I'm of the mind at the moment that the efficiency claim was actually false, but then again there is end-result that; that battling Europe, the States, and USSR, even with an alliance with the Axis, is somewhat potential testament to the effectiveness. I have questions about the contesting of their rise to power pre-war, but also I'm still looking into it.

Also with regard to battling other states, it's reasonable to assert objection that Hitler had a military industrial complex to get ready for war, which isn't and shouldn't be apart of Gill's plan.