Cortez marginal tax rate hike

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Mickey_Rat15
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Mickey_Rat15 »

CmdrKing wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:59 pm Oh, no, the House has to do math. They do the budgets.
But the math part of the debate is later. We’re at the “what are the options to confront this societal problem” stage, and having specific budgetary goals happens later, as programs are designed, committees convened, bills debated, tempered, and honed into something that can become law.

Like Ocasio-Cortez isn’t a genie that blinks her proposed bills into law unaltered. She’s a congresswoman putting forth ideas into the public sphere to change the national conversation on what solutions to our problems are possible, and even if her work is the core foundation of future legislation, it will assuredly be more modest and measured than her rhetoric.
That is one heck of a word salad you have thrown together, but Cortez has suggested some numbers and they don't add up, especially as she has spent that money on several other of her proposals. Either she does not understand this or she knows it and does not care. Which means she is selling these proposals under false pretenses and is a fool or a liar.

The financial aspects are of critical importance. First, in whether it is feasible and as an aspect of whether it is desirable and what else does it change? How much misery are you willing to cause to implement this?

She is not a genie, she is someone with very little knowledge and too much hubris. In any organization, there are places for the competent and driven, the competent and lazy and even the incompetent and lazy. The ones you never gove authority to are the incompetent and driven. They are the ones who are likely to drive you off a cliff. I am afraid Cortez is in the last category.
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CmdrKing
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by CmdrKing »

Mickey_Rat15 wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:35 pm
The financial aspects are of critical importance. First, in whether it is feasible and as an aspect of whether it is desirable and what else does it change? How much misery are you willing to cause to implement this?
Since the rest of this is contingent on this point, we’ll set it aside.

When congress proposes legislation, they study it.

Do the math.
Get projections.
Call in specialists and researchers.
Demanding proposals be fully vetted as they are proposed is nonsense.

Is there extant research suggesting raising taxes to historic norms is catastropic? If so, who commissioned it? Is it peer reviewed?
Similarly, is reinforcing the social safety net somehow disastrous for society? Even my *intentionally outlandish* example is short of a UBI, which research shows... benefits and stabilizes economies where trials have taken place, with no negative impact on employment rates.

You dress up insults and dogmatic insistence on the way things are as inviolable truths, based on the assumption the underlying values you hold are also economic fact.
Darth Wedgius
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Darth Wedgius »

CmdrKing wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:22 pm
Darth Wedgius wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:16 pm
Does her actual proposal even mention the Federal Poverty Line? Or is that another assumption on your part?
Oh, it’s meant as a “let’s generate the biggest number Relevant to this particular discussion” figure. A worst case scenario if you like.
If Ocasio-Cortez is proposing something more ambitious than “literally pay out the federal Poverty Line in cash to people below it” I will be genuinely surprised.

Y’see, the precise numbers? They don’t matter at this stage of the discussion. The broad scope is relevant just to grapple with the enormity of the problem, and thus the scale solutions need to be. We want to know just how big we need to be thinking to do this thing. Half a trillion is a big number, but not an insurmountable one. A 70% marginal rate gets us about 10% of that, and a quick google tells me SNAP and TANF are another 25%.
So we’re a third of the way there with 5 minutes research. No other programs, no other tax reform, no overhead reduction, not even ACTUAL MATH.
Treating this as pie in the sky nonsense is ludicrous because it’s looking mighty plausible before even doing the hard work.

My point here isn’t to debate specific policy
Or draft legislative language or federal budgets. We, as a society, are letting numbers seem bigger than they are, and assuming we have unsolvable problems due to the math being too hard before actually considering the problem in simplest form. The answer isn’t “nope, the economy can’t take it, better let people suffer”, it never was, and letting ourselves think in that way has crippled us.

What do we need, how do we get there, what steps can we take to make it easier to get there, what precautions will mitigate suffering while we solve and strive toward these solutions. Those are the questions worth asking.
There are two different things here. One is the proposed legislation, which doesn't mention "economic security for those unwilling to work." The other is the FAQ which OAC's people seem a bit conflicted as to whether that was real or not, but does appear on archives of her website. The FAQ has the "economic security for those unwilling to work."

Starting a conversation on that front is fine. AOC and some of her ilk seem OK with "just spend the money" whether they have it or not. I find that troubling. And I think people calling her out on it is entirely justified, whether it's secretly a negotiation tactic or not, because given her recent history I'm not willing to assume she's secretly reasonable.
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

Darth, you better be very seriously down on the entire military-industrial complex if you're going to complain about AOC spending money we don't have, and maybe the entire republican tax cut bills while we're at it.

People are angry at her about a lot of things, but she is getting the most heat for suggesting that people might pay a higher tax on the amount of money they earn ABOVE ten million dollars a year.
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Darth Wedgius
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Darth Wedgius »

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:06 am Darth, you better be very seriously down on the entire military-industrial complex if you're going to complain about AOC spending money we don't have, and maybe the entire republican tax cut bills while we're at it.

People are angry at her about a lot of things, but she is getting the most heat for suggesting that people might pay a higher tax on the amount of money they earn ABOVE ten million dollars a year.
For the former, I'd be happy to see the U.S. defense budget become a portion of the GDP in line with the other NATO members. For that matter, a heavily armed neutrality like Switzerland might not be that bad an idea. The E.U. has economic power roughly on par with the U.S., and can defend itself against Russia. The right might not like a decrease in U.S. military power, and the left who decried us leaving Syria will have to live with that kind of intervention being a thing of the past and the world becoming a bit more dog-eat-dog, but I'm an unapologetic nationalist and the U.S. is my primary concern. One of the reasons I'm in favor of renewable energy is so that the next time someone invades someone in the middle east, I'd like to be able to just shrug and read about the weather.

But deficit spending has been done by Democrat and Republican alike now for longer than I've been alive, and for many reasons. Laying that at the feet of defense spending alone or Republicans alone would not be honest.

For the latter, if you can substantiate that people are most outraged about the fact that she wants to raise the marginal tax rate for income above ten million annually, and not tied to the amount of that increase, I will withdraw my objection and I assure you I will feel much chagrined.
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

I wasn't contesting that it was the amount of the increase. I apologize for the lack of clarity.

70% isn't a huge deal. We had that much before and it wasn't a problem, but now everyone's acting like it's the most radical proposal ever.
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Darth Wedgius
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Darth Wedgius »

Fuzzy Necromancer wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:41 am I wasn't contesting that it was the amount of the increase. I apologize for the lack of clarity.

70% isn't a huge deal. We had that much before and it wasn't a problem, but now everyone's acting like it's the most radical proposal ever.
Technically, this doesn't mean I have to be much chagrined. Just thought that was important to point out. ;)

While we've had 70% before, it's been rare if you adjust for inflation, and it would be the highest in the world. I think that could itself raise a few eyebrows, though I'm not qualified to say what the overall economic impact would be.

FWiW, the outrage I hear seems to be mostly about other things in AOC's proposal, with "economic security for those who choose not to work" being the big one, and the one AOC seems to want to backtrack on (to the extent of calling it fake, something that seems unlikely unless hacking was involved), but also including equity proposals (i.e., equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity).
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Fuzzy Necromancer »

The super-wealthy already benefit from our nation's incredibly weak labor laws, parcity of unions, etc. Let them pay their share for that. Most other industrialized nations have higher minimum wages and worker protections.

The only reason to oppose this is if you're a boot-licker who hopes the plutocrats will somehow help you get ultra-rich.

For those other things, you can start your own thread.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

Well I don't want my favorite actors musicians and professional sports superstars to move to another country.
..What mirror universe?
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Madner Kami
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Re: Cortez marginal tax rate hike

Post by Madner Kami »

No matter how high the top income tax, without enforcement, it's completely irrevelant. And I am fairly well convinced, that you do not have to increase the tax rates in the first place, but that the true problem and the best way to increase tax income is, to enforce the taxes that are already in place and remove ways to hide income. "Calculating yourself to be poor", so that someone with $1,000,000 a year of income effectively pays less taxes than someone who earns $20,000 a year, should not be an option.

Conversely, any tax rate that is higher than 50% of your income is unjustifiable outside of special, time-limited circumstances.
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