"Misgendering," Arrests, and the UK

[CharlesPhipps]

My opinion on misgendering as a Southern white cis male living in redneck land is, "If a person wants to be treated a certain way and a certain sex, maybe it's none of your fucking business."

[Darth Wedgius]

For what it's worth, I approach this as a freedom of expression issue rather than a sexuality or gender identity issue.

If someone wants to be called "ma'am" I'll call them "ma'am," or "zie" or "flargenfoop ximblepie." I wouldn't date a transgender person, but there's no harm in being nice. And I don't really care about the plumbing of the person next to me in the bathroom.

But I haven't heard of an objective test for gender. Yes, there are male/female brain dimorphisms that can show up in the opposite sex, but that's not the same as gender, either. If it's not an objective reality then IMO it comes down to someone having a different opinion, and while that may be rude, I don't see it as something that should be illegal. If it offends you, criticize it, or boycott, or whatever.

But then I think conservatives and libertarians tend to be more tolerant of free speech they disagree with, at least in terms of legal consequences.

[CharlesPhipps]

For me, it's generally this way.

1. It's not, "Hi ma'am." "How dare you call me a woman!"

2. It's, "Hi ma'am." "I'm actually a transman, sir." "Fuck it, you look like a woman. So I'll call you a woman."

[CmdrKing]

But I haven't heard of an objective test for gender. Yes, there are male/female brain dimorphisms that can show up in the opposite sex, but that's not the same as gender, either. If it's not an objective reality then IMO it comes down to someone having a different opinion, and while that may be rude, I don't see it as something that should be illegal. If it offends you, criticize it, or boycott, or whatever.

There do seem to be biochemical roots for people experiencing gender differently from their biological sex, but to my knowledge there’s no obvious markers that have been discovered and nobody’s entirely sure how it works.
Granted, as noted upthread intersex people exist, so tying gender to sex is a bit dicey to start with.

More broadly, intentionally misgendering someone is probably closest to insistently telling someone to kill themselves, in terms of “level of impoliteness”.
Granted, on the internet this is indeed a common goal of transphobes, so working as intended I suppose.

[G-Man]

Okay then, how do you classify people with complete androgen insensitivity? They have functional, though internal, testicles but from birth are outwardly anatomically female.

Intersexed people are definitely a challenge, and I can understand the idea of calling their sex "assigned."

What I am arguing is that there is something weird about insisting that someone who is fully functionally one sex is actually the other sex.

My opinion on misgendering as a Southern white cis male living in redneck land is, "If a person wants to be treated a certain way and a certain sex, maybe it's none of your fucking business."

Which you can argue for as a matter of courtesy. However, when it comes to someone being sent into a prison, or someone going into a certain locker room, or competing in gender-segregated sports, things become a little different.

[CharlesPhipps]

Which you can argue for as a matter of courtesy. However, when it comes to someone being sent into a prison, or someone going into a certain locker room, or competing in gender-segregated sports, things become a little different.

A lot of things also exist for the comfort for the participants. So it becomes a question of what allows the comfort of the people involved.

A transgender woman isn't necessarily comfortable in a male bathroom or safe in certain places.

(And we have Unisex ones at the place I work)

Same with prison issues.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Okay then, how do you classify people with complete androgen insensitivity? They have functional, though internal, testicles but from birth are outwardly anatomically female.

What I am arguing is that there is something weird about insisting that someone who is fully functionally one sex is actually the other sex.

I don't really get why sex ever comes into the discussion. A lot of transgender activists don't dispute that sex has to do with chromosomes, but I see it brought up in the discussion on behalf of a trans person and I wonder if it's being used as a misnomer.

[CmdrKing]

I find that intersex conditions tend to be easier for cis folk to wrap their heads around when they’re at the “how can girl if penis” stage of not knowing anything about trans people.

Basically, it’s something you can explain in clinical terms, and it breaks down the idea that human sexual expression is binary: you can, medically, be neither male nor female, or medically have reproductive function that doesn’t match your genes, so on.

Once someone understands that reality is more complicated than “boys have a penis and girls have a vagina”, they’re more likely to understand the idea of gender not matching assigned sex. ‘Cuz that’s the main hurdle: nothing in the cis experience is really comparable to gender dysphoria. You can’t really lead off with “hearing my own voice makes me feel like someone stole my real one and replaced it with a gag dub” because that sounds like garbled gibberish. But “so human sex is actually weird and complicated” in hopes of sparking the realization that maybe gender is also complex? That can work.

Edit: that said, for obvious reasons intersex folk often also have complicated relationships with their assigned sex, so there’s a reasonable amount of overlap between the two communities, and thus a lot of overlap of knowledge, as well.

[Darth Wedgius]

...

More broadly, intentionally misgendering someone is probably closest to insistently telling someone to kill themselves, in terms of “level of impoliteness”.
Granted, on the internet this is indeed a common goal of transphobes, so working as intended I suppose.

Can you back up either of those assertions with objective evidence?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Oh wait, I didn't realize you were talking about intersex.