DS9: Business as Usual

[bguy]

Oh, I just remembered another example of civilian ownership! Guinan has that bigass phaser rifle hidden behind her bar that she pulled out in Night Terrors.

There's also Kevin Uxbridge from the Next Generation episode "The Survivors." He also owned a phaser.

[G-Man]

"Survivors?"

"What we pulled out didn't live for long..."

Okay, I'll bite. Where's that from?

[clearspira]

Oh, I just remembered another example of civilian ownership! Guinan has that bigass phaser rifle hidden behind her bar that she pulled out in Night Terrors.

There's also Kevin Uxbridge from the Next Generation episode "The Survivors." He also owned a phaser.

I don't know if Guinan counts. A) she is on a military vessel that routinely gets boarded by invaders and B) she isn't a Federation citizen so the rules may be different for her. Remember how some Bajorans are allowed to wear earrings and some aren't? Captain's favouritism seems to be law. (A) also goes for Kevin AND the farmer from Broken Bow because he predates the Federation.

Really, I am struggling to think of a Federation civvie from the 23rd and 24th centuries who owns a gun, even in situations where you would think that the person would. Tom Paris in ''Non-Sequitar'' is shady enough to own a personal transporter but no Type-1 phaser stashed for emergencies? Not to mention all of those off-world colonies that routinely get wiped out with nary a shot fired. I'm sorry but based on visual evidence the Federation seems to be far more Britain than the USA in terms of gun control.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Like what? Settled with his striking employees, to name one example? I need remind you that while Sisko put pressure on Quark, the only thing that really stopped the strike was Brunt's arrival. Other than that, Quark tried to bribe Rom - he didn't acquiesce to their demands, and only did so secretly. Sir Will's contention that Quark is greedy is absolutely truth, but at the same time, I think there's a bit of grey area in that Quark is pushed into a situation where he could be desperate enough, and that I don't think Gaila's associates typically were in the business of genocide - it was just their luck they got the Regent as a customer. I see their work as more selling weapons to people like those who became al Qaeda or ISIS rather than the Hitlers and Stalins of planets, or people like the Bajoran rebels, legitimately fighting for their freedom or to throw off an oppressive system. There is grey there, to be sure - except when you get someone so clearly insane like the Regent is, which Quark could spot, and so did what any decent person with a conscience did: He tanked the deal.

This reminds me of Benicio Del Toro in The Last Jedi. There's really no such thing as good guys or bad guys when you think about it.

[Formless One]

I don't know if Guinan counts. A) she is on a military vessel that routinely gets boarded by invaders and B) she isn't a Federation citizen so the rules may be different for her.

Citizenship has nothing to do with it. Weapon laws normally effect who can possess a gun or other weapon as long as they are within the country's jurisdiction. If I took a gun I legally owned in the United States to Britain, it would be confiscated and I would likely be detained for attempting to smuggle an illegal weapon into their country. The Enterprise counts as Federation soil, ergo their jurisdiction. In The Outrageous Okana, Worf ordered Okana to disarm himself while on the Enterprise, and all he had on his person was a big knife. But knife laws are still related and relevant. In comparison, Worf has all sorts of knives and swords in his blade collection, because he legally owned them and rarely carried them except while on duty or on his homeworld. Though like you say, he is the ship's security officer. If Guinan isn't a Federation citizen (and I'm pretty sure she is), her right to possess that phaser on the Enterprise is still subject to Federation law just like Okana and his knife.

And like I said, whatever favoritism Picard shows to his crew it does not extend to serious violations of the law or Starfleet protocol. Remember The First Duty, where he told Wesley in no uncertain terms that if he didn't admit to what Nova Squad actually did that got a cadet killed Picard would present the damning evidence himself? And Wesley is almost like a son to him! Or at least, that's what the writers intended. Picard having some discretion over how tightly his officers have to adhere to the uniform code is not the same thing as him turning a blind eye towards a civilian owning contraband on his ship.

For the second point, its supposed to be the ship's security personnel who deal with boarding parties, so if Guinan got permission to keep a phaser behind her bar on account of that risk it means that the Federation's weapons laws grant self defense as a valid reason to own a phaser. Friend, that ain't how it works in Britain; look it up. I'm not judging, its just a fact.

[clearspira]

Like what? Settled with his striking employees, to name one example? I need remind you that while Sisko put pressure on Quark, the only thing that really stopped the strike was Brunt's arrival. Other than that, Quark tried to bribe Rom - he didn't acquiesce to their demands, and only did so secretly. Sir Will's contention that Quark is greedy is absolutely truth, but at the same time, I think there's a bit of grey area in that Quark is pushed into a situation where he could be desperate enough, and that I don't think Gaila's associates typically were in the business of genocide - it was just their luck they got the Regent as a customer. I see their work as more selling weapons to people like those who became al Qaeda or ISIS rather than the Hitlers and Stalins of planets, or people like the Bajoran rebels, legitimately fighting for their freedom or to throw off an oppressive system. There is grey there, to be sure - except when you get someone so clearly insane like the Regent is, which Quark could spot, and so did what any decent person with a conscience did: He tanked the deal.

This reminds me of Benicio Del Toro in The Last Jedi. There's really no such thing as good guys or bad guys when you think about it.

I think The Boss from Metal Gear Solid 3 is a better example when she tried to school the then green and patriotic Naked Snake on just how ridiculous the concept of an enemy in absolute terms actually is.

[CrypticMirror]

He doesn’t pay rent for his space, or for the energy he uses. Since Rom left, he now gets free repairs too. That means 100% prophet on some, perhaps most, of his food and drinks, and on his holosuites. When the Ferengi turned on him, they gave him the means to start over. I think they give him enough.

Quark put his life on the line, putting his one bar up as collateral to three different lenders, to get seed money to try and play the stock market, when he really isn't the type to take on personal risks like that.

I don't know what his profits and expenses are, but it seems evident that whatever perks the Federation gave him were not enough to offset the loss of his Ferengi business connections.

Well I think therein lies the problem. Quark keeps on trying to make profit, and thus he keeps on getting hung out to dry. He's not running a bar because he finds fulfilment in owning a bar, he's doing it so he can make cash out of everything. To the other Ferengi he's gone native in the Federation, and benefits from the advantages Federation life brings (while other Ferengi have to scrape and risk everything, he keeps getting bailed out by his Feddie Friends) to his Federation friends he is still acting like one of those weird relatives from The Old Country and not enjoying life in the land of the free. They are willing to help him, if he just drops those silly old customs that keeps getting him into trouble.

Quark really needs to pick a lane.

[clearspira]

I don't know if Guinan counts. A) she is on a military vessel that routinely gets boarded by invaders and B) she isn't a Federation citizen so the rules may be different for her.

Citizenship has nothing to do with it. Weapon laws normally effect who can possess a gun or other weapon as long as they are within the country's jurisdiction. If I took a gun I legally owned in the United States to Britain, it would be confiscated and I would likely be detained for attempting to smuggle an illegal weapon into their country. The Enterprise counts as Federation soil, ergo their jurisdiction. In The Outrageous Okana, Worf ordered Okana to disarm himself while on the Enterprise, and all he had on his person was a big knife. But knife laws are still related and relevant. In comparison, Worf has all sorts of knives and swords in his blade collection, because he legally owned them and rarely carried them except while on duty or on his homeworld. Though like you say, he is the ship's security officer. If Guinan isn't a Federation citizen (and I'm pretty sure she is), her right to possess that phaser on the Enterprise is still subject to Federation law just like Okana and his knife.

And like I said, whatever favoritism Picard shows to his crew it does not extend to serious violations of the law or Starfleet protocol. Remember The First Duty, where he told Wesley in no uncertain terms that if he didn't admit to what Nova Squad actually did that got a cadet killed Picard would present the damning evidence himself? And Wesley is almost like a son to him! Or at least, that's what the writers intended.

For the second point, its supposed to be the ship's security personnel who deal with boarding parties, so if Guinan got permission to keep a phaser behind her bar on account of that risk it means that the Federation's weapons laws grant self defense as a valid reason to own a phaser. Friend, that ain't how it works in Britain; look it up. I'm not judging, its just a fact.

I never said that the Fed mirrors British gun control, I said it is closer to it than the USA. Let me ask you a question: Charlton Heston's famous ''you can take my gun out of my cold dead hands'' speech. Answer Y or N as to whether you can imagine that speech taking place in the 24th century of Star Trek. If you can't, then you have a society closer to Britain than the USA. If you can, then please tell me what show you have been watching.

As for Captain's favouritism, this show is all over the map concerning that. Can I imagine that Picard ''I will confiscate religious earrings but allow my counsellor to wear a catsuit'' Picard would be that hypocritical? yes I can actually. Depends on the writer. Case in point: Picard gunning down aliens in a dune buggy in Nemesis despite his PD rants, and Picard protecting the Ba'Ku despite the infamous native American ep where he made the exact opposite decision.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

This reminds me of Benicio Del Toro in The Last Jedi. There's really no such thing as good guys or bad guys when you think about it.

I think The Boss from Metal Gear Solid 3 is a better example when she tried to school the then green and patriotic Naked Snake on just how ridiculous the concept of an enemy in absolute terms actually is.

Luke Cage season 2 bumped into this issue a bit with regard to giving the baddest ongoing characters in the show legal immunity to handle the issue of Bushmaster. That was actually more in the interest of public good though.

edit: I'm actually not having the easiest of time thinking of a media adaptation that exhibits moral grayness with the likes of the government much better than what we see in real life.

[Formless One]

I never said that the Fed mirrors British gun control, I said it is closer to it than the USA.

Doesn't matter. British law clearly states that "self defense" is not a valid excuse for owning a firearm, and they will not grant a permit to own one on that basis. Same goes for Scotland and Wales. Ireland is the sole exception, and even there it is rarely asked for or granted (even compared to other European countries). In that regard, if Guinan was allowed one for self defense (a not unreasonable assumption given the context of Night Terrors), that makes Federation law on the subject qualitatively different from British law. Same as the United States? Maybe not, but then again we don't know for sure. Given that the sniper rifle from Field of Fire could be made using nothing but a replicator, their laws would have to adapt to keep up with the existence of such a disruptive manufacturing technology. They probably can't implement weapon laws as restrictive as in Britain and other EU countries. That's the problem with introducing something like replicators into the story.

edit: also, there was that episode of DS9 where the Cardassians reprogrammed the Station's replicators to make phaser turrets as a riot control measure, among other episodes that outright confirm replicators can make weapons. They have to be specifically programmed not to, and you can bet if the only thing preventing them from doing so is a bit of software people will reprogram them when they get desperate.

As for Captain's favouritism, this show is all over the map concerning that. Can I imagine that Picard ''I will confiscate religious earrings but allow my counsellor to wear a catsuit'' Picard would be that hypocritical? yes I can actually. Depends on the writer. Case in point: Picard gunning down aliens in a dune buggy in Nemesis despite his PD rants, and Picard protecting the Ba'Ku despite the infamous native American ep where he made the exact opposite decision.

But again, his lax attitude towards Starfleet's uniform code is not comparable to allowing contraband on his ship, and the films came long after Night Terrors and The First Duty first aired. I think Picard was pretty consistently written during TNG's original run, its only in the films that he starts going senile. And even then, in Insurrection he claimed he was acting in accordance with the spirit of the law rather than in defiance of it. It was undeniably stupid, but that's a judgement by us as fans. Nemesis is the only outlier here, because the writer was apparently huffing paint and couldn't think of a better way to slot in a dune buggy chase on Patrick Stewart's request. This is why we don't talk about Nemesis.