DS9: Business as Usual

[Yukaphile]

Well, it's what Chuck has said, that Trek writers can be a bit too... hamfisted and preachy sometimes.

[Artabax]

And they should have trusted Quark. He is not above smuggling. He is above people getting hurt because of his actions.

That is the point. Quark talks profit, but he hasn't the heart to do it.

TOS Pen Pals PD demands kill them all Picard hasn't the heart to do it. Planet of the Aryan Utopia, PD says Wesley must die, Picard hasn't the heart to do it. VOY and ENT are all PD = Genocide, look at us snowflakes being morally superior.

BTW Star Wars prequel, Ben says 'I win, I have the high ground.' When real People fight, high ground is an advantage, Jedi can jump over each others' heads, so moral high ground confers zero advantage.

All he wants to do is kill as many people as possible in order to send a message, and that's all he talks about it. James Bond villains are more complex than this guy since they're usually killing people as part of a grander plan

This is a story about Quark's moral dilemma. Regent is just Villain of the Week who puts Quark in the situation that Quark must make that choice.

[Beastro]

Didn't see it anywhere in the old gun debate here, so I'll add it: Guns are fun to shoot. Doesn't have to be at something living, never done that myself not being a hunter, but loved planting shots into whatever junk people would haul up logging roads to do just that with.

For the record, I'm only speculating theoretically - that the 28,000,000 were an outlier. Just for the sake of argument. I personally don't think it was. Scarily enough, it could even have been a good deal higher in a few instances... thus I don't think it was a black market business, but I don't think they were... very good people, just typical of the kind of mindset that fuels the NRA gunmakers who lead the organization, but they won't admit to - "We're willing to sell to anyone who wants a gun!" Because mass murder and a climate of paranoia and fear leads to more sales since people want to protect themselves. They just can't say that because political backlash would end them. I am willing, however, to see the speck of good within the bad. That some of those they sold to weren't the Hitlers or Stalins of planets, or for a lesser variant, al Qaeda or ISIS, but legitimate freedom fighters. That is good. That good cannot overcome the bad. But how much of the good CAN be weighed against the bad? To that, we'll never know.

I still think... well, here's the problem regarding the DS9 crew's reaction, and it really goes back to what some earlier had said about it being "self-righteous indignation" rather than disappointment in the same vein as the Federation's other holier-than-thou views. It's that I, a so-called "unenlightened" 21st century human, can sympathize with Quark. To claim he's ONLY motivated by greed is just not so. Quark is far more complicated than that, just like Garak. As others had pointed out, he was facing serious financial problems that, well... the Federation wasn't helping him with, after they had gone out of their way to put him back in business, and recall in "Emissary" that Sisko wanted him to be the community leader. I know that they don't grasp economics, and... it is true they're not obligated to help him, but when you set someone up as community leader, blackmail them to stay, then yank them around acting all happy if they were to leave on repeated occasions, only to once again stand with them in solidarity, you're kind of sending mixed messages. So in my opinion, after "Body Parts," they at least should have offered to help - though did they? It's been a while since I've seen the episode, so maybe the offer was given given and he turned it down. Ultimately, I think it's very possible Quark could have been put out of business if not for the brief money he made from Gaila's associates. Not defending him. I'm just pointing that out. A key note to remember is that Quark does not belong to and live among the Federation, and he's not even in Federation territory, but Bajoran space, which is an economy based on capitalism. The thing I'm trying to say with all this rambling is that I could understand how Quark could be put into a corner where he could be driven to desperation into a bad situation like this, and gets in over his head. And he does refuse to stand with his business partners when it's clear they're bloodthirsty monsters, don't forget or undervalue that. In that respect, it's like a metaphor for the stereotypical straight-laced kid falling into the "cool and rebellious delinquent" crowd, but ultimately rejecting them once they are shown to be engaging in some vice or crossing a moral boundary with their behavior that he refuses to. How does this tie into the point at the beginning? That's how I see it. You'd think a society that so masturbates on the perfection of humanity could see it too, and be less judgmental. Hell, this reminds me of how Riker and Picard, but most especially Riker, were holding a grudge against Ensign Ro for... her so-called despicable crimes that, to be frank, didn't seem that dissimilar from Tom Paris or Nick Locarno. Granted, we don't see the incident, but I can't see supposedly "evolved" human beings holding grudges to that extent or visibly restraining it, barely making an effort to hide it, but trying to be more sympathetic. Even if I didn't like her, I could hide it better - and this again from the supposedly "unevolved" 21st century human. I think that's the issue with how the DS9 staff react to all this. It ties into the larger arrogance of the 24th century Federation, and that rubs some people the wrong way.

Just food for thought. XD

Paragraphs.

Use them.

[FaxModem1]

Bullshit they do! They are not responsible for Brunt's actions. They are not responsible for making sure Quark has a perfect future because somebody told Rom about worker's rights! What bullshit is this!?

They helped him rebuild the bar. What the fuck do you expect them to do!?

I would say that they were partially responsible for Brunt's actions. Here's some quotes from the episode.

ROM: You anticipated the change of administrations here on the station.
QUARK: And as a reward I'm inextricably linked to the Federation. I'm a joke on Ferenginar. Starfleet's favourite bartender. The Synthehol King. What a legacy.

BRUNT: A contract is a contract
QUARK: Is a contract. I know that! But you don't collect on contracts under these circumstances. We're not Klingons. We're businessmen.
BRUNT: This is not business, Quark. This is personal.
QUARK: Why? What have I ever done to you?
BRUNT: Done to me? And you call your brother an idiot? Nothing you've ever done to me has been more than a minor inconvenience. No. Protecting your mother from an FCA audit, and secretly settling with your striking employees were nothing more than symptoms of a vile and insidious weakness. A weakness that makes me loath you, not for what you've done but for who you are, what you are.
QUARK: A bartender?
BRUNT: A philanthropist.
QUARK: I am not!
BRUNT: You give your customers credit at the bar. You only take a thirty percent kickback from your employees' tips, and you sold food and medicine to Bajoran refugees at cost!
QUARK: That's not true. It was just above cost.
BRUNT: Close enough. It was still a generous, humanitarian gesture. You've gone Starfleet. You might as well be wearing one of their uniforms. It's people like you that give honest Ferengi businessmen a bad name.
QUARK: I can reform. I'll start gouging the customers again. I'll revoke all my employees' vacation time.
BRUNT: You gave them vacations?
QUARK: I didn't give them anything. They contributed to a central fund which I manage.
BRUNT: You disgust me.

Quark is often painted as a scheming Ferengi, but he's done some good, usually under do-gooder Federation influence, and Ferengi society turned on him for it. Your ordinary, baseline Ferengi is much darker then Quark. It wasn't just Brunt, Brunt was acting as the will of the people. Even before Brunt arrived, Quark (having just returned from a trip to Ferenginar) told Rom about how the Federation stink on him was destroying his standing with his people.

As the guys constantly prodding Quark to do good, his Federation friends (ignorant of the consequences of their demands) do bear some responsibility for Quark's fall.

They helped him get his bar back up and running. Okay, that's a good start. But if he can't do business on the Ferengi side of the fence anymore, then they've got to try and find a way to help him keep his bar in the black with only Federation-side business. Quark should be able to turn a profit, as his religion demands. And it seems that there's an option where if he earns enough money, he can buy back his standing in Ferengi society. That should be their goal. To show that being friends with the Federation puts you on the winning team. But they didn't nearly go that far for him.

Quark sold weapons out of immediate need and desperation, and after squaring his debts away and pulling himself back up to zero, he engaged in some selfless heroism which ended his gravy train and could have killed him, and Sisko rewarded Quark with more debt, which he could have easily overlooked, but chose not to. Because sacrificing yourself for the Federation is not rewarding.

I'll remind you that Quark was hired to be the Federation negotiatior with Gamma Quadrant powers, and he burned them on that score by adding a bunch of unnecessary fees so that he could pocket some extra money.

HANOK: When we first agreed to use the Ferengi as intermediaries, we did it because we knew the Dominion would never tolerate direct trade between us and the Federation.
(Everyone say Hi! to James Cromwell under the latex again.)
QUARK: And we're glad to be of service. I'm happy to say that not a single Ferengi vessel has been stopped by the Jem'Hadar.
HANOK: Unfortunately, we have found there is little profit in doing business with the Federation. In order to comply with your all commerce laws, we have had to pay a series of taxes and fees that have made the costs too high.
SISKO: What sort of taxes and fees are you referring to?
HANOK: For example, on a recent shipment of Karemman Fleece, a four percent surcharge was added to inspect the cargo for changeling infiltrators.
SISKO: What?
QUARK: You never know where they might be hiding.
HANOK: And a six percent tariff was imposed to help offset the lost income of Tarkalian sheep herders.
QUARK: Hardworking people. You have to feel for them.
HANOK: Need I go on, Captain?
SISKO: No. I think you've made your point.
(And Quark gets a very stern Look.)

If you're giving Quark a bone to act as an intermediary, and he is making your side of the negotiation look bad by charging a bunch of worthless fees, then yeah, you're not going to help him out again when he takes advantage of your generosity.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Can we try to keep discussion in this thread centered around the questionability of the 2nd Amendment's legitimacy?

[FaxModem1]

Can we try to keep discussion in this thread centered around the questionability of the 2nd Amendment's legitimacy?

The whole point of the discussion seems to be whether or not the Federation was doing enough to keep Quark afloat, and they gave him lucrative contracts as a negotiator. He then abused that trust, so of course the Federation isn't saving his skin financially. Him then turning to weapons dealers is just another point of contention.

Quark is charming, but he openly admits to Hanok later that he is fleecing the Federation, as shown here:

QUARK: We're gaining altitude.
HANOK: How can you tell?
QUARK: I've got the lobes. You've got them, too. It's an old Ferengi expression. Usually when we say that someone has the lobes, we mean that they have a keen business sense. That's you. I'll admit it. You fooled me. I thought you were just another easy mark. But you saw right through my little scam, and taught me a thing or two about doing business in the Gamma Quadrant. I guess I've gotten lazy. I'm used to dealing with the Federation. If you thought I was cheating you, oh, you have no idea what I was doing to them and they still haven't caught on. If someone like me can put one over on them, think what someone like you could do.
HANOK: Someone with my lobes?
QUARK: Exactly. And I'm just the man to help you do it. we could become rich, rich beyond our dreams.
HANOK: You are despicable.
QUARK: I hate the Gamma Quadrant.

You can't really take Quark as just some poor businessman being beset by Federation regulations when he's being this openly dishonest and cheating them when they try and help him out.

[Yukaphile]

Yeah, but to what extent is the Federation just sending mixed messages? Like how they blackmail him into staying, and go out of their way to keep him in business well after "Starship Down," where this happened, and yet act excited if he were to leave? That's yanking the dog's chain.

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, but to what extent is the Federation just sending mixed messages? Like how they blackmail him into staying, and go out of their way to keep him in business well after "Starship Down," where this happened, and yet act excited if he were to leave? That's yanking the dog's chain.

Please point to where they have a party when Quark is forced to leave the station. This episode is really the only time they cut off all contact with him, and that's because he's running with known gun smugglers, who don't care who their customers are.

And he's always done things that are less than legal:
Come to Quark's, Quark's is fun. Don't walk, run

They may give him the cold shoulder, but Quark is not an innocent party in this. On more than one occasion, he has done illegal things that are just shy of serious offenses, if not serious offenses in themselves. How would you like it anytime you tried to open your fridge, checked your email, or answered a phone call, you got an advertisement for the restaurant down the street? He didn't buy the airtime, he hijacked their comms and replicators. This is NOT them weighing down upon poor Quark. This is them tolerating a lot of crap that Quark does, and finally, Quark crosses the line by becoming an arms merchant.

And they mostly tolerate it, because hey, he brings commerce to DS9, and he's the devil they know. But when his bottom line is leading to people getting killed. Yeah, that's a line in the sand that they're not going to laugh off like they usually do.

[Yukaphile]

Well, there was Kira and Sisko's actions in "The Jem'Hadar" and "Playing God."

Yeah, Quark broke the law to sell ads on the station monitors - because Sisko won't let him do so normally. He gives no reason that's satisfactory, at least in the episode where he turned him down. There's nothing horrible about ads, except maybe in that it violates the Federation's sense of moral outrage when it comes to all things money-related.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Can we try to keep discussion in this thread centered around the questionability of the 2nd Amendment's legitimacy?

The whole point of the discussion seems to be whether or not the Federation was doing enough to keep Quark afloat, and they gave him lucrative contracts as a negotiator. He then abused that trust, so of course the Federation isn't saving his skin financially. Him then turning to weapons dealers is just another point of contention.

Quark is charming, but he openly admits to Hanok later that he is fleecing the Federation, as shown here:

QUARK: We're gaining altitude.
HANOK: How can you tell?
QUARK: I've got the lobes. You've got them, too. It's an old Ferengi expression. Usually when we say that someone has the lobes, we mean that they have a keen business sense. That's you. I'll admit it. You fooled me. I thought you were just another easy mark. But you saw right through my little scam, and taught me a thing or two about doing business in the Gamma Quadrant. I guess I've gotten lazy. I'm used to dealing with the Federation. If you thought I was cheating you, oh, you have no idea what I was doing to them and they still haven't caught on. If someone like me can put one over on them, think what someone like you could do.
HANOK: Someone with my lobes?
QUARK: Exactly. And I'm just the man to help you do it. we could become rich, rich beyond our dreams.
HANOK: You are despicable.
QUARK: I hate the Gamma Quadrant.

You can't really take Quark as just some poor businessman being beset by Federation regulations when he's being this openly dishonest and cheating them when they try and help him out.

That's just about as nebulous as 2nd amendment implications. I have to admit that I'm not the most familiar with the show here, but I've never gotten the impression in the show or especially the episode that Quark is some hard-on-his-luck victim of circumstance that the federation is obliged to take considerable sympathy upon. I haven't gotten that impression much about the federation itself.