Is Riker kind of a butthead?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLGsB9jHkz0

Was watching this video and this guy uses the episode Chain of Command to mark what a dimwit Riker comes off in it. Was wondering what yours all thoughts were. I didn't think he was that bad in it.

[MissKittyFantastico]

I have mixed feelings about the Jellico slice of 'Chain of Command' - there's a lot of interesting ideas in it, but I don't feel like they were expressed quite the way they deserved, to the detriment of the characters.

The notion of Jellico wanting to do things his way, which ruffles the crew, is a good one, but combining that with him being a micromanager undermines the effect - I feel like the interesting story is Jellico laying down the law because he knows what they'll need facing the Cardies, and it's more important to shape up ASAP than take more time to ease everyone into the change; basically he's the guy who knows they've got 24 hours to maybe face a war, and better to be good now than perfect too late, so Get It Done. Likewise dealing with Gul Whatever, Picard would never do what Jellico does with the 'power move' games, but it's a weapon Jellico trusts, so he uses it. Which doesn't mean his abrasiveness has to be some kind of virtue rather than a flaw, or that Troi can't observe that he's not as confident as he projects - I like the idea of a flawed captain who nonetheless gets the job done, dirty but competently, in a 'perfect is the enemy of good' kind of way. It could even play into the broader theme that Starfleet doesn't really seem to have a great grasp of how to deal with Cardassians, so Jellico gets the job because he's got some merits there, and that'd the best they've managed so far. But the four-shift-rotation thing just stands out like a sore thumb, because I can't see any way for it to be a valid concern - as a short-term stand-in there's no way Jellico should be screwing around with the 'motor functions' of the crew like that, and it really comes across as domineering for ego's sake.

Riker's kind of stuck between a horta and a hard place then, because - the way I see the episode anyway - he's objectively right, Jellico shouldn't give a crap how the nuts and bolts of the ship run, so long as it's A-grade when he calls on it. That's the XO's job, handle the details so all the captain has to do is hold out his hand for a sword, and doesn't have to ask if it's sharp because the XO's made sure it's damned sharp. But at the same time he pisses around whining instead of putting up or shutting up - it's not okay, in his role, to be dragging his feet on the shift thing such that Jellico has to find out later that orders he expects have been followed aren't yet. It gives weight to Jellico's accusation that he's not a very good XO, because he doesn't seem to be - but the episode seems to want to go for a 'both sides have a point' sentiment, where (I feel, anyway) it should be more cut and dried, either Riker's handling his duties well or he isn't regardless of whether Jellico's a good captain.

If they'd gone through with Operation Riker Swap in 'Second Chances' (which was after this, yes?) it could've been quite a good arc - 'Chain of Command' gets Riker wondering if he is a good first officer, and come to the conclusion that he used to be but he's gotten so comfortable he's actually not anymore (you'd maybe have Picard troubled by Riker's behaviour in part one, rather than assuring Jellico - and the audience, it felt like - that Riker's actually amazing). Maybe he decides he really does need to move on, but now he's got doubts that he's got the Right Stuff to be a captain after so long dodging the chair. Then 'Second Chances' gives him a chance to really confront those doubts, and overcome them to feel ready.

As it stands with 'Chain of Command', the way things are I feel like what we get out of it is just that Jellico is someone who by nature brings out the worst in Riker, and that compromises his professionalism. But I didn't feel the episode really committed to an examination of 'Riker as XO' in a way that we're to take as a reflection of his character overall - like, he was kind of a butthead that time, but if we're supposed to take away that he's a butthead in general, the writing's giving us mixed messages.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

In the video I posted above, the guy made it sound like the episode was on Riker's side, but I didn't get that sense really from the episode itself. Riker carries out his orders every time, and the non diegetic music never paints Jellico as ominous, just that there's a good deal of tension brewing with the situation.

The only thing I see Riker kinda stumble with is when Jellico doesn't give into the Cardasian ultimatum to let Picard go. I do agree that he didn't know what Jellico was up to, but Jellico did make it seem like he just dgaf and wasn't going to think about it much longer. Of course he proves to be effective, I just don't blame Riker for acting up (personally). Also by the end I'm confident where specifically I side with Riker in their heated exchanges.

I really liked the whole plot of Jellico taking over the ship and dealing with the Cardis. Then yeah I took note when Troi sensed his unease. I didn't think it was bad how he was rearranging the ship. Geordi vents his frustrations, but he's very on point with what's getting to him. He says he doesn't mind doing it, just that it's too much in too little of time. Of course this does go to suggest that this refitting is necessary for how Jellico wants to deal with the Cardassians, and also that it would have helped if they had realized that Picard's way wouldn't work.

It was a bit hard for me to follow with the design specifications and how they were important

[technobabbler]

real world: the writers didn't know what to do with Riker, ie no character growth over 7 years---even his romance w/Troi was largely off-screen (in my opinion...i dunno what any book/Frakes said about that)

in-universe: Riker was a closet holodeck addict and only Galaxy-class holdecks could give him the right hit....or Shelby was right---Riker got fat and lazy on the Enterprise. The inverse of Khan: better to serve on a near new Galaxy-class ship than rule in a 50 year old Excelsior-class ship.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

real world: the writers didn't know what to do with Riker, ie no character growth over 7 years---even his romance w/Troi was largely off-screen (in my opinion...i dunno what any book/Frakes said about that)

in-universe: Riker was a closet holodeck addict and only Galaxy-class holdecks could give him the right hit....or Shelby was right---Riker got fat and lazy on the Enterprise. The inverse of Khan: better to serve on a near new Galaxy-class ship than rule in a 50 year old Excelsior-class ship.

And the Jallico episode?

[Yukaphile]

I dunno, I agreed with Riker when he got in Jellico's face for not admitting they sent Picard. If one of our nationals was captured overseas, and the only thing stopping torture and possibly worse was an admission that we'd sent him, I'd hope our leaders would be willing to do so. I'm fairly confident President Obama would have - assuming he wasn't making plans to forcefully "extradite" him, and that's the problem him. Jellico doesn't even consider rescuing him. He's writing him off as a sacrifice, but why should he make that decision, a mere captain? I know Starfleet gives their captains great autonomy, but come on. Shouldn't the Federation President make the decision, given this seems more related to interstellar diplomacy?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I dunno, I agreed with Riker when he got in Jellico's face for not admitting they sent Picard. If one of our nationals was captured overseas, and the only thing stopping torture and possibly worse was an admission that we'd sent him, I'd hope our leaders would be willing to do so. I'm fairly confident President Obama would have - assuming he wasn't making plans to forcefully "extradite" him, and that's the problem him. Jellico doesn't even consider rescuing him. He's writing him off as a sacrifice, but why should he make that decision, a mere captain? I know Starfleet gives their captains great autonomy, but come on. Shouldn't the Federation President make the decision, given this seems more related to interstellar diplomacy?

He was actually going to confer with the admirals and suggest that they stay mute about it and amp up security on the perimeter. I'm taking it that they would honor his request.

I'm not really certain that Obama wouldn't have expendable spies during his presidency. And of course a lot of people would be utterly pacifist on the matter, but it's nonetheless out of your hands as a citizen with expectations of your government.

Perhaps Jellico was too easy to turn his cheek, and I don't remember what makes him change his mind if he didn't already plan the sabotage, but given that is the case then we can see it as a redemption arc for him given this aggressive diplomacy of his might be overheating the expected sensibilities of an episode's arc.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

It's hard for me to be critical of Riker when I'm convinced that Jellico is a rutting, overcompensating idiot who is just as invested in the pissing contest of alpha wolf fuckery as the Cardassians are and worries that if anyone opposes his command that might prove they have a larger penis.

[Yukaphile]

@BridgeConsoleMasher I don't recall that. But then, it's been a while since I watched the episode.

Spies, yes. Picard was a military officer basically drafted into it, and a rather beloved figure among the ranks. That's different than people who willingly sign up into a life where you know that could happen.

Yes, he was way too easy. I'd daresay he comes off as ruthless, though at least with a sensibility of being on our side. Kind of an inverse of Dukat in his darker, more quiet moments.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

@BridgeConsoleMasher I don't recall that. But then, it's been a while since I watched the episode.

Spies, yes. Picard was a military officer basically drafted into it, and a rather beloved figure among the ranks. That's different than people who willingly sign up into a life where you know that could happen.

Yes, he was way too easy. I'd daresay he comes off as ruthless, though at least with a sensibility of being on our side. Kind of an inverse of Dukat in his darker, more quiet moments.

All this being said, it's largely a matter of the Federation, as I'm saying. They're giving Jellico a commanding blank check for his experience with the Cardassians, and that applies to pretty much everything he does that's in question for this episode.

And also it is worth pointing out that this might be followed by a scene directly after where he takes into consideration how confidently he's handling the situation. That's just for consideration of the episode though.

It's easy to consider it a reverse Dukat when Jellico is largely playing in a Cardassian court style of gameplay.