Trans "women" athletes have advantages over cis women

[Darth Wedgius]

Do you think our society encourages women to be shorter? Also, which societies have women with the same average upper-body strength as men?

Testosterone doesn't make adults taller.

I don't get the point of your argument here--you're arguing that women should be forced to race against men because of what chromosomes they have? By that logic, some female supermodels are probably "actually" men (complete androgen insensitivity is a surprisingly common disorder that causes XY women). for reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_ ... y_syndrome

So yeah. How do we make the distinction between men and women if not through personal identity and presentation?

Testosterone doesn't make adults taller? But, to actually answer my question, it does make for taller adults. On average.

I'm not suggesting a way to solve the problem of transwomen competing against biological women, or that it is a problem at all. The entire NBA could say that they're female tomorrow and demand to compete against WNBA players and I wouldn't much care. I think the WNBA might, though.

My point is that you're wrong about average upper body strength differences being due to social conditioning. There are plenty of women in western culture who come nowhere near conventional standards of beauty, and who exhibit the same sexual dimorphism in upper-body strength. Just as discussion about climate change shouldn't start out with a plan to hunt down the dragons responsible, discussions about transwomen in women's sports should have a strong foundation in scientific fact.

[Yukaphile]

And testosterone, in some scientific circles, are theorized to be the reason men are more aggressive. You really wanna go down the road of gender roles and gender stereotypes, then I can do it too. If so, then I'd guess men need less testosterone in their bodies, not more, if we're going to make it to the end of the 22nd century.

[LittleRaven]

I think willpower matters more than vague generalizations.

Evidence strongly suggests you're wrong. Willpower is important, of course, but Michael Phelps didn't do what he did by willpower alone. Through no action of his own, his body is almost perfectly formed to the perfect swimmer. Now of course he also has incredible willpower and determination to go along with that body, but that doesn't change the fact that he was born with the perfect tool to accomplish the job. No matter how much you trained or how much willpower you have, odds are, you'll never swim as well as he does. You literally can't.

Otherwise, a woman whose child is threatened couldn't lift up a car. Seriously, that's been the case a few times.

Yes, but there's a reason it only happens when her child is under the car - it literally risks tearing the mothers body apart. Ligaments tears, joints collapse. Sure, if the stakes are high enough, the body goes into overdrive and removes all the safeties, but that's not an indication of willpower, that's a demonstration of our capacity for self-sacrifice.

I also do hate thinking of women as "weaker" than men even physically because it helps subconsciously feed into this mainstream view the patriarchy and men have that women need us to look out for them, make their decisions for them, or that they don't know enough to plan things out on their own.

That's understandable. It's ridiculous to think that because women are physically weaker that they somehow need a man to look out for them. Muscle strength is not particularly relevant to most aspects of modern life. My daughter is 90 pounds soaking wet and would stand no chance against most men on the planet, but she can shoot a pistol as well as 95% of them, and that's a pretty good equalizer.

[Yukaphile]

I'll repeat, most women aren't dwarfs, they are of near comparable height and build to men. I refuse to treat women as weaklings. It's just the patriarchy's way of constantly underestimating them. Those could potentially be biased sources too. Bias is everywhere. Even the 2016 polls were wrong. I've finally stopped trusting any official source on anything, because they could be wrong. They're made by people, and people make mistakes.

Well, this wouldn't apply to tournaments with rules in place, but I'd see it apply elsewhere in the real world. I do hate this conceit that men have that "we need to decide what's best for women" because "we're bigger and stronger." On the battlefield, I guarantee women will kick just as much ass. And I've heard right-wingers treat women as fragile flowers, too delicate to do hard labor like mining, as if their bodies would just break apart, because if ANY woman can ever hold up a car, then obviously it's just more patriarchal underestimating of women.

And... muscle strength isn't as insurmountable as you make it seem either. It also ignores how diverse humans are worldwide when it comes to body shapes. I've personally known a very short guy, shorter than the girl he tagged along with always had a crush on, Sam, and... yeah. Ignoring his bad leg, I'm convinced he couldn't win a fight, because he's short. Doesn't have spina bifada or something. He's just gotten the short end of the stick. You can't generalize something like "most people" when it comes to genetics... and after WWII, I'm very leery to do so, and always like defying those who do.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

You know what? This is where it leads. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... ampionship

Trans boy wants to wrestle. They said "no you are a girl you have to wrestle with the girls!" So then they tried to ban him from the girl's wrestling league because he takes testosterone.

Everyone saying trans women shouldn't be in women's sports, look me in the fucking eye and tell me you give a damn about fairness in women's sports. Tell me that's an actual, legitimate concern for you, and the impetus for your decisions on this. Tell me you've talked to a woman, any woman, about how she feels on this subject.

It's just an excuse you skinless wieners.

[LittleRaven]

I'll repeat, most women aren't dwarfs, they are of near comparable height and build to men.

But you're the only one in this thread who's comparing women to dwarfs. Of course women aren't fragile flowers or helpless damsels - and nobody in this thread is saying they are. What people are saying is that women's bodies are physically different from men's in measurable, quantifiable ways that make them, on average, weaker than men.

This fact (and it is a fact) is not particularly relevant to modern society as whole. But it is relevant to the top tier of athletes, so expect to see more controversy about this in the future.

[Yukaphile]

By a degree that's not insurmountable is what I'm saying. Take a random mugger who sees a pretty lady on the street, follows her, tries to rape her, and that lady, if she has enough fighting spirit, might knock the knife out of his hands, kick his arm, and pin him to the wall, and then beat on his stomach. Again, that's why I tend to think strength, training, the tools? Is nothing. The will matters most. Other than that, it's a billion random factors that could fuck over any man or woman.

[LittleRaven]

Tell me you've talked to a woman, any woman, about how she feels on this subject.

Is Martina Navratilova enough of a woman for you?

"A man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organization is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires," 18-times Grand Slam winner Navratilova wrote in The Sunday Times.

...

Wimbledon champion Navratilova, who has campaigned for gay rights and suffered abuse when she came out in the 1980s, argued transgender women have unfair physical advantages.

"A man builds up muscle and bone density, as well as a greater number of oxygen-carrying red blood cells, from childhood," she said.

I suspect you'll find that as a whole, it's not MEN who are upset about the possibility of transwomen taking over women's sports.

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

dude! I didn't know you talked to celebrities! =o

[Karha of Honor]

I think willpower matters more than vague generalizations. Otherwise, a woman whose child is threatened couldn't lift up a car. Seriously, that's been the case a few times. I also do hate thinking of women as "weaker" than men even physically because it helps subconsciously feed into this mainstream view the patriarchy and men have that women need us to look out for them, make their decisions for them, or that they don't know enough to plan things out on their own. One thing leads to another, leads to another, leads to another. Of course, while I think most people have more control over themselves than they think, I also believe most people don't know themselves as well as they think.

Not just weaker. At their peak in team sports or even ping pong the Jedi ablilities of where to move when and how to pass of men are better.

Do you think our society encourages women to be shorter? Also, which societies have women with the same average upper-body strength as men?

Testosterone doesn't make adults taller.

I don't get the point of your argument here--you're arguing that women should be forced to race against men because of what chromosomes they have? By that logic, some female supermodels are probably "actually" men (complete androgen insensitivity is a surprisingly common disorder that causes XY women). for reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_ ... y_syndrome

So yeah. How do we make the distinction between men and women if not through personal identity and presentation?

Testosterone doesn't make adults taller? But, to actually answer my question, it does make for taller adults. On average.

I'm not suggesting a way to solve the problem of transwomen competing against biological women, or that it is a problem at all. The entire NBA could say that they're female tomorrow and demand to compete against WNBA players and I wouldn't much care. I think the WNBA might, though.

My point is that you're wrong about average upper body strength differences being due to social conditioning. There are plenty of women in western culture who come nowhere near conventional standards of beauty, and who exhibit the same sexual dimorphism in upper-body strength. Just as discussion about climate change shouldn't start out with a plan to hunt down the dragons responsible, discussions about transwomen in women's sports should have a strong foundation in scientific fact.

Isn't the WNBA the NBA's gift to women while countries like Russia have actual profitable female bball teams?