Illegal Border Crossings Surge

[Darth Wedgius]

It does sound as if nobody has a practical alternative to the wall for controlling immigration to levels we want instead of levels would-be immigrants want. There are those who insist that the wall will not cut down on illegal immigration, but that seems more a philosophical principle for some people than something they have objective evidence for, given the efficacy of walls elsewhere.

[Admiral X]

I suppose how well it would cut down on it would depend on how well it is patrolled. And that being the case, I'd rather just do the patrols.

[Madner Kami]

^Pretty much this. Without someone actually having an eye on things and the boots on the ground to react a wall is, at best, a delay, not a stop. And given the makeup of the US' southern border, the geography itself is already a massive delay that a wall isn't going to add much to. And if your primary problem is a lack of manpower in the first place, the wall will do nothing but burn money that you could invest elsewhere, like into more manpower for border patrols or an actual health system or helping poor kids to get into a good education without massively indebting themselves.

[G-Man]

I suppose how well it would cut down on it would depend on how well it is patrolled. And that being the case, I'd rather just do the patrols.

A rather non sequitur statement; even if a wall is only effective if it is patrolled well, that does not mean that patrols with a wall are not more effective than patrols without a wall.

[G-Man]

^Pretty much this. Without someone actually having an eye on things and the boots on the ground to react a wall is, at best, a delay, not a stop. And given the makeup of the US' southern border, the geography itself is already a massive delay that a wall isn't going to add much to. And if your primary problem is a lack of manpower in the first place, the wall will do nothing but burn money that you could invest elsewhere, like into more manpower for border patrols or an actual health system or helping poor kids to get into a good education without massively indebting themselves.

But the primary problem is not a lack of manpower; it is that our current laws make it very difficult to get rid of illegal aliens once they cross onto America soil.

Increasing manpower will not help much if they wind up being nothing more than the welcome wagon. We are already catching more illegal aliens than we can detain so we have to release them. What's the point in doubling or tripling manpower if everyone we catch gets released into the country anyway?

And the bigger issue is that the Democrats have absolutely no interest in solving the problem at the border. It is not like they are "the wall won't work but let's work on alternate ways to defend the border." Rather, they worked to limit the number of beds available to detain illegal aliens, attempted (unsuccessfully) to limit their use for interior arrests to 16000, and allocated $414 million toward "humanitarian concerns" (i.e. helping and welcoming those who cross the border illegally).
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/politics ... index.html

Note that Trump requested funding for 750 more Border Patrol Agents, 2000 more deportation officers (and 1300 more staff to support them) and got nothing (although CNN reports 200 more border patrol agents - they may be talking about the ICE criminal and opioid investigation officers). https://www.govexec.com/management/2019 ... al/154911/ So the Democrats did not exactly push for increased enforcement other than a wall.

The point is not that the wall is the best solution. The point is that the Democrats are offering no solution at all to the problem of illegal border crossings, which in February are at an 11-12 year high. Either they insist that there is no problem because crossings were down a year and a half ago (claims about how low illegal border crossings tend to use statistics from 2017), or they talk about increasing spending without actually doing anything to keep people OUT (i.e. more patrols who are obligated to release the people they catch after they catch them).

[Yukaphile]

@Madner Kami Exactly. And funding a wall, which will endanger 93 species, is the kind of reckless spending you only engage in with a surplus, which we had 19 years ago, that we don't anymore, thanks to Bush. IIRC the Dems offered funding for border patrol, but Trump wants that damn wall to prove to his base that he's hot shit and gets things done. It's entirely political heading into 2020. It's literally going to be on his reelection platform. "I got the wall built!"

[Madner Kami]

But the primary problem is not a lack of manpower; it is that our current laws make it very difficult to get rid of illegal aliens once they cross onto America soil.

Increasing manpower will not help much if they wind up being nothing more than the welcome wagon. We are already catching more illegal aliens than we can detain so we have to release them. What's the point in doubling or tripling manpower if everyone we catch gets released into the country anyway?

Now it's funny of you to point that out. You can build the wall in exactly two places:

1) Exactly at the border, which leads to US agents being incapable of doing anything until crossers actually attempt to get over oder under the wall and you are going to need a lot of people to cover the length of the wall in order to prevent anyone from crossing over oder under it in the first place.
2) You build it behind the border, meaning that if someone tries to cross the wall, he will already be in US territory and thus, under the jurisdiction of what you just suggested to be inadequate to deal with the situation in the first place.

Do you realize something or do I need to write down, where you should put that money instead of building a wall?

[G-Man]

Now it's funny of you to point that out. You can build the wall in exactly two places:

1) Exactly at the border, which leads to US agents being incapable of doing anything until crossers actually attempt to get over or under under the wall and you are going to need a lot of people to cover the length of the wall in order to prevent anyone from crossing over or under it in the first place.
2) You build it behind the border, meaning that if someone tries to cross the wall, he will already be in US territory and thus, under the jurisdiction of what you just suggested to be inadequate to deal with the situation in the first place.

Do you realize something or do I need to write down, where you should put that money instead of building a wall?

And if you don't have a wall, agents still are not really able to do much until the crosser gets over the border. These agents are there to pick them up, not to stop them from crossing. A steel-slat barrier like the one that the President has proposed will allow the agents to see when people are attempting to cross and then take steps to stop them before they are able to cross (see the "tear gas" (really pepper-spray)) incident from November, which occurred in San Diego where there is such a barrier. The goal of a barrier is to slow them down.

Do you think that if we hire more agents, they will magically have the power to turn back the illegal aliens before they cross the border, instead of the illegal aliens rushing the border (and turning them back with tear gas will be difficult if they are crossing over a wide area) and then turning themselves in?

[G-Man]

@Madner Kami Exactly. And funding a wall, which will endanger 93 species, is the kind of reckless spending you only engage in with a surplus, which we had 19 years ago, that we don't anymore, thanks to Bush. IIRC the Dems offered funding for border patrol, but Trump wants that damn wall to prove to his base that he's hot shit and gets things done. It's entirely political heading into 2020. It's literally going to be on his reelection platform. "I got the wall built!"

But we can spend $414 million on "humanitarian aid for the border, in the form of enhanced medical support, transportation, food and clothing for migrants in detention."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/politics ... index.html

Any outrage over California spending $33 million to help illegal aliens fight deportation, when it has a massive homeless problem?
https://newspunch.com/jerry-brown-defen ... portation/

If the Democrats had a serious plan for dealing with the border crisis, I would listen to them. But the only thing they are demanding is more catch-and-release. And that is the problem. They are not just opposed to the wall, they are opposed to doing anything to make it harder for illegal aliens to get into the United States.

[Draco Dracul]

Now it's funny of you to point that out. You can build the wall in exactly two places:

1) Exactly at the border, which leads to US agents being incapable of doing anything until crossers actually attempt to get over or under under the wall and you are going to need a lot of people to cover the length of the wall in order to prevent anyone from crossing over or under it in the first place.
2) You build it behind the border, meaning that if someone tries to cross the wall, he will already be in US territory and thus, under the jurisdiction of what you just suggested to be inadequate to deal with the situation in the first place.

Do you realize something or do I need to write down, where you should put that money instead of building a wall?

And if you don't have a wall, agents still are not really able to do much until the crosser gets over the border. These agents are there to pick them up, not to stop them from crossing. A steel-slat barrier like the one that the President has proposed will allow the agents to see when people are attempting to cross and then take steps to stop them before they are able to cross (see the "tear gas" (really pepper-spray)) incident from November, which occurred in San Diego where there is such a barrier. The goal of a barrier is to slow them down.

Do you think that if we hire more agents, they will magically have the power to turn back the illegal aliens before they cross the border, instead of the illegal aliens rushing the border (and turning them back with tear gas will be difficult if they are crossing over a wide area) and then turning themselves in?

And the wall does nothing to change that as by definition a Wall must be past the boarder. Basically you're accomplishing nothing other than ceding American land.