The Omega Glory (TOS)

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Beastro
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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Yukaphile wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:47 am Because he was ripping off Asimov. That's why no one was that enthusiastic.
Rip off is a term I'm increasingly getting tired of, as it's almost always misused.

First, because it ignores the role of inspiration in the creation of new things. For some weird reason, we increasingly demand new things be new to the point of being ex nihilo, that isn't the way things works. All new things come from something else, just as you inherit qualities from your parents, yet are a different and new from both.

The second issue is we also somehow think only one person can think something up when that's clearly not the case as the internet so loves to demonstrate.

JMS only realized he'd recreated A Canticle for Leibowitz after finishing writing A Deconstruction of Falling Stars, but he kept it as is because thinking it over he realized he was not deliberately trying to rip off that story.

His episode was not a rip off and the best that could be said was him being unconsciously inspired by Leibowitz. He kept things in place, yet did not leave them as is, as he worked through his world-building reasons as to why things would be the case in universe that made sense, the same sense that ultimately lay behind the very idea of post-apocalypse monks trying to rebuild civilization, the important thing was he worked to make it his own unique variant of the idea.

All work operates in the same way, whether we like it or not. It's why I find Harlan Ellison's reaction to Terminator so bloody annoying. Instead of seeing a new, young director producing a work clearly inspired by his Outer Limit episodes and being flattered and honoured to have influenced James Cameron, he bristled at the familiar in the movie took it for stealing and sued over it.

The thing about any rip off is that it very much walks like a duck and talks like a duck. One just has to glance at it for it to become apparent that the only original thought put into the work was to rip off something else:

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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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I feel it applies to Roddenberry given how much of a misogynistic hack he was. Everywhere I look in the stories he had a direct hand in now, I see elements of someone else's work, and have to wonder if he was just looking for new things to shove into his own work, not out of respect, but for fame and attention and glory that he doesn't deserve. He kind of reminds me of Bernie Sanders, in that regard.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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Yukaphile wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:43 am I feel it applies to Roddenberry given how much of a misogynistic hack he was. Everywhere I look in the stories he had a direct hand in now, I see elements of someone else's work, and have to wonder if he was just looking for new things to shove into his own work, not out of respect, but for fame and attention and glory that he doesn't deserve.
I think that kind of grossly downplays the role of the actual writers and how many famous, even brilliant authors of sci-fi were among them.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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How am I downplaying these giants like Larry Niven and Isaac Asimov? They obviously told great stories. Someone like Lucas was paying homage, I feel. Roddenberry was just the one doing a shameless ripoff. Intent also factors into why and how, is how I see it.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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Yukaphile wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:46 am How am I downplaying these giants like Larry Niven and Isaac Asimov? They obviously told great stories. Someone like Lucas was paying homage, I feel. Roddenberry was just the one doing a shameless ripoff. Intent also factors into why and how, is how I see it.
He was speaking of Star Trek's writers. Even if what you say about Roddenberry can be taken as 100% true, that doesn't include them and their part in the show.

FWIW, I've never got a feeling of rip off from Trek as a whole, even when a given episode was clearly inspired by another work.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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The Hierarchy vs. the Sontarans? COME ON.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

Post by ChiggyvonRichthofen »

If you go by a book like Inside Star Trek, Roddenberry certainly had his problems and shady, unethical practices (ripping off Alexander Courage being a prime example). That doesn't mean he wasn't an important part of the series.

Roddenberry was a professional writer for years before Trek. Among other things, he wrote 24 (!) episodes of Have Gun-Will Travel, one of the best westerns of the era. One things professionals have to do is write material that will keep them employed, regardless of their personal views or quirks or even what they really want to write. A few of Roddenberry's views trickled through occasionally, but even during production of Trek he wasn't an atypical showrunner. He wasn't a saint and I wouldn't call him a visionary, but he played a big role in creating a popular, well-made show.

One thing that does come with increased power is the ability to be more self-indulgent and produce your own pet projects. The Omega Glory falls into that category. NBC fought him on producing that episode for a long time (it was considered even as a pilot) before he was finally able to push it through. The results weren't great, but that doesn't mean that Roddenberry was a hack as a professional writer.

Later on when Trek became one of the definitive cult/sci-fi shows, I think it went to the head of "The Great Bird of the Galaxy" and he was no longer required to put in the work of a professional as he did in his early career. He was also free to make claims about Trek that were originally not necessarily true.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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I'd argue no, he was only important in conception, but just because you have a shitty mother doesn't mean you owe her anything. In this case, he hindered more than helped (like inserting his own rampant misogyny and twisted sex views into Trek, or attempting to), and contributed very little to the stuff people remember and love. All the best successes that stayed in the cultural mainstream consciousness came from someone other than him. Harve Bennett, Nicolas Meyer, Gene Coon, DC Fontana, Michael Piller, Ron Moore, Brannon Braga even, etc... not him.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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Yukaphile wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:02 am The Hierarchy vs. the Sontarans? COME ON.
Beyond a similar, though different (one being very short, very stocky, the other being normal human height but portly) look one is a race obsessed and entirely focused around the military while the other is is centered around kissing ass and passing the buck because of their status obsesses society.

I wouldn't be surprised if the latter influenced the costume design of the former, but I wouldn't call that a rip off.
Yukaphile wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:34 am I'd argue no, he was only important in conception, but just because you have a shitty mother doesn't mean you owe her anything. In this case, he hindered more than helped (like inserting his own rampant misogyny and twisted sex views into Trek, or attempting to), and contributed very little to the stuff people remember and love. All the best successes that stayed in the cultural mainstream consciousness came from someone other than him. Harve Bennett, Nicolas Meyer, Gene Coon, DC Fontana, Michael Piller, Ron Moore, Brannon Braga even, etc... not him.
He was the heart of Star Trek.

It wouldn't have had the same vibe without him, especially TOS. Seriously, look up the Have Gun episodes he wrote. Every single one of them has a distinct feel to them different from all other Have Guns episodes, especially the characterizations, and it's the same one that Star Trek would later embody.

It may be he hindered more than he helped, but what did he beyond the straight up beneficial was create something to work against that provided an equilibrium to the series. I don't like the idealistic side of Trek, but I recognize it being a fundamental part of the show and one that came from him more than anyone else. One can see that when the equilibrium got too upset with early TNG and he dominated.

Everyone has a place in the world, and when it came to Trek, he was at the very least an obstacle the rest had to surmount that wound up making for a better quality show, if only in the paradoxical was that censorship can often improve the quality of a work by requiring writers to be more subtle then they otherwise would be to slip things past.
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Re: The Omega Glory (TOS)

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I do think one of Gene's most critical roles was actually as the show's ambassador in the 70s, encouraging the growth of fanzines and conventions in way most creators of television series really hadn't before. One could argue that it was in his own best interest given his failures to launch other projects and the chance to get his ego stroked by legions of fans. Nonetheless the expansion of the fandom was served well by a creator figure like Roddenberry giving his stamp of approval in various avenues, and (given the franchise's precarious status at that point) reinforcing Trek's relevance and value in being continued.
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