Democrats Want to Make Border Crisis Worse

[Darth Wedgius]

Darth, can you stop the alt-right talking points and implications that Mexicans are lazy durr hurr right now and explain to me what "cultural traits" of the massively divergent societies of a continent and a half (formed from the assimilation of literally dozens of native societies and imported slaves into the social frameworks of two similar but distinct Iberian cultures) you think have somehow affected Latin America?

Because all I see is the US getting lucky and having initial strategic advantages while the Latin American nations were actively fucked over for literally centuries.

Worffan, you're the only one bringing up race or anything related to the alt-right. Please stop poisoning the well.

As far as what cultural traits might be different, I don't know what they are. I can make a semi-educated guess at best that individualism, relative resistance to corruption (corruption can have a very deleterious effect on economic growth), relative levels of belief in limited good, and relative enthusiasm for education could have enormous effects.

[Antiboyscout]

Darth, can you stop the alt-right talking points and implications that Mexicans are lazy durr hurr right now and explain to me what "cultural traits" of the massively divergent societies of a continent and a half (formed from the assimilation of literally dozens of native societies and imported slaves into the social frameworks of two similar but distinct Iberian cultures) you think have somehow affected Latin America?

Because all I see is the US getting lucky and having initial strategic advantages while the Latin American nations were actively fucked over for literally centuries.

Welcome to Geopolitics 101. Cultures are shaped by the land they lay on. Jungles, mountains, deserts are some of the most difficult land to work with. Mexico is mostly Mountains. This causes a lack of cohesion in the country weakening the central government. Mexico is mostly desert and jungle. This means that, the only way a person can eek out a living in the harsh environment is if they already have the capital to tame the land in the first place. This leads to a massive divide between the rich and the poor. This also leads to authoritarian governments as, in order to control the country at all, the government has to cut deals with the wealthy land owners creating de-facto feudalism.

As a response to all this, the mexican culture, at least the political culture, involves a lot of strongman machismo politics and the government is socialist, corrupt, and authoritarian.

none of that is good to introduce into the American system.

[Worffan101]

Darth, can you stop the alt-right talking points and implications that Mexicans are lazy durr hurr right now and explain to me what "cultural traits" of the massively divergent societies of a continent and a half (formed from the assimilation of literally dozens of native societies and imported slaves into the social frameworks of two similar but distinct Iberian cultures) you think have somehow affected Latin America?

Because all I see is the US getting lucky and having initial strategic advantages while the Latin American nations were actively fucked over for literally centuries.

Worffan, you're the only one bringing up race or anything related to the alt-right. Please stop poisoning the well.

As far as what cultural traits might be different, I don't know what they are. I can make a semi-educated guess at best that individualism, relative resistance to corruption (corruption can have a very deleterious effect on economic growth), relative levels of belief in limited good, and relative enthusiasm for education could have enormous effects.

"Poisoning the well"?

The whole "cultural differences can explain success" chestnut is literally promoted by the alt-right from their hives on Stormfront and 8chan, it's a repainting of the old "protestant work ethic" and "lazy blacks" narratives.

American WASP culture is not immune to corruption; quite the opposite, in fact. American WASPs are not particularly enthusiastic for education, and aren't particularly individualistic. They just like to think they are.

Quite simply, the economic differences between the USA and, say, Brazil, boil down to a simple combination of basic factors like Spanish and Portuguese strangulation of the colonies, a challenging environment (Amazon is much harder and less productive to farm than, say, the Mississippi basin), legacy of the caste system (see just how badly the American South's economy has been historically compared to the North), and the legacy of the lost decades in the mid-19th and late 20th centuries (thanks, US meddling!). To insinuate otherwise is literally buying into racist propaganda that is itself based on racist propaganda from the 19th century.

If we're going to talk about poisoned wells, let's talk about how those bullshit propaganda lies have permeated the Internet through the active efforts of neo-Nazi propagandists until reasonable discussion has been rendered impossible.

[Robovski]

Darth, can you stop the alt-right talking points and implications that Mexicans are lazy durr hurr right now and explain to me what "cultural traits" of the massively divergent societies of a continent and a half (formed from the assimilation of literally dozens of native societies and imported slaves into the social frameworks of two similar but distinct Iberian cultures) you think have somehow affected Latin America?

Because all I see is the US getting lucky and having initial strategic advantages while the Latin American nations were actively fucked over for literally centuries.

Worffan, you're the only one bringing up race or anything related to the alt-right. Please stop poisoning the well.

As far as what cultural traits might be different, I don't know what they are. I can make a semi-educated guess at best that individualism, relative resistance to corruption (corruption can have a very deleterious effect on economic growth), relative levels of belief in limited good, and relative enthusiasm for education could have enormous effects.

"Poisoning the well"?

The whole "cultural differences can explain success" chestnut is literally promoted by the alt-right from their hives on Stormfront and 8chan, it's a repainting of the old "protestant work ethic" and "lazy blacks" narratives.

American WASP culture is not immune to corruption; quite the opposite, in fact. American WASPs are not particularly enthusiastic for education, and aren't particularly individualistic. They just like to think they are.

Quite simply, the economic differences between the USA and, say, Brazil, boil down to a simple combination of basic factors like Spanish and Portuguese strangulation of the colonies, a challenging environment (Amazon is much harder and less productive to farm than, say, the Mississippi basin), legacy of the caste system (see just how badly the American South's economy has been historically compared to the North), and the legacy of the lost decades in the mid-19th and late 20th centuries (thanks, US meddling!). To insinuate otherwise is literally buying into racist propaganda that is itself based on racist propaganda from the 19th century.

If we're going to talk about poisoned wells, let's talk about how those bullshit propaganda lies have permeated the Internet through the active efforts of neo-Nazi propagandists until reasonable discussion has been rendered impossible.

You are the one calling things racist and making this about race. It's like you cannot argue this without making it about racism.

[Worffan101]

You are the one calling things racist and making this about race. It's like you cannot argue this without making it about racism.

...because it's pretty much always about racism? Especially when people start literally retreading 19th century arguments about how "that country of brown people is in a bad state because of their culture" or whatever.

Racism is very much alive and well, pal. It's just been given a facelift by the neo-Nazis on hives like 8chan and Gab.

[Darth Wedgius]

Darth, can you stop the alt-right talking points and implications that Mexicans are lazy durr hurr right now and explain to me what "cultural traits" of the massively divergent societies of a continent and a half (formed from the assimilation of literally dozens of native societies and imported slaves into the social frameworks of two similar but distinct Iberian cultures) you think have somehow affected Latin America?

Because all I see is the US getting lucky and having initial strategic advantages while the Latin American nations were actively fucked over for literally centuries.

Worffan, you're the only one bringing up race or anything related to the alt-right. Please stop poisoning the well.

As far as what cultural traits might be different, I don't know what they are. I can make a semi-educated guess at best that individualism, relative resistance to corruption (corruption can have a very deleterious effect on economic growth), relative levels of belief in limited good, and relative enthusiasm for education could have enormous effects.

"Poisoning the well"?

The whole "cultural differences can explain success" chestnut is literally promoted by the alt-right from their hives on Stormfront and 8chan, it's a repainting of the old "protestant work ethic" and "lazy blacks" narratives.

American WASP culture is not immune to corruption; quite the opposite, in fact. American WASPs are not particularly enthusiastic for education, and aren't particularly individualistic. They just like to think they are.

Quite simply, the economic differences between the USA and, say, Brazil, boil down to a simple combination of basic factors like Spanish and Portuguese strangulation of the colonies, a challenging environment (Amazon is much harder and less productive to farm than, say, the Mississippi basin), legacy of the caste system (see just how badly the American South's economy has been historically compared to the North), and the legacy of the lost decades in the mid-19th and late 20th centuries (thanks, US meddling!). To insinuate otherwise is literally buying into racist propaganda that is itself based on racist propaganda from the 19th century.

If we're going to talk about poisoned wells, let's talk about how those bullshit propaganda lies have permeated the Internet through the active efforts of neo-Nazi propagandists until reasonable discussion has been rendered impossible.

I thought the alt-right were white supremacists? Again you're the one who keeps bringing up race. You keep trying to put words into my mouth. You're poisoning the well -- look it up if you don 't get the reference.

As far as the rest goes, I never said anything about WASPs. You're the one that keeps bringing up race, remember? Nor did I say anything about anyone being "immune" to corruption. Another case of you trying to put words into my mouth. Education? About 45% of Mexican students finish high school. And do I need to bring sources in for ranking countries by individualism? Here's one for you:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scienc ... essed.html

[Worffan101]

I thought the alt-right were white supremacists? Again you're the one who keeps bringing up race. You keep trying to put words into my mouth. You're poisoning the well -- look it up if you don 't get the reference.

As far as the rest goes, I never said anything about WASPs. You're the one that keeps bringing up race, remember? Nor did I say anything about anyone being "immune" to corruption. Another case of you trying to put words into my mouth. Education? About 45% of Mexican students finish high school. And do I need to bring sources in for ranking countries by individualism? Here's one for you:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scienc ... essed.html

What exactly is your point here? I've made it abundantly clear that your argument about culture being somehow responsible for the economic state of Latin America is literally a re-painting of age-old racist bullshit narratives, which have been used against the Irish, Italians, African-Americans, Chinese, Poles, etc. throughout American history. "Laziness is a trait in blacks" (as 45 said), "Protestant Work Ethic", it's all the same bullshit narrative with different buzzwords.

45% of Mexicans finish high school because the Mexican economy is in the toilet from decades of one-party quasi-populist rule followed by disastrous free-market "reforms" in the '80s and '90s to curry favor with that idiot Reagan and his Pinochet-backing toady Milton Friedman, and income inequality and corruption have become so awful that most kids literally need to drop out of school to work as soon as they can. You might as well say that late 19th century American culture was inferior, or Jim-Crow-era African-American culture was inferior, because most Gilded Age kids had to work in shithole factories to keep their families alive, and Jim Crow-era black kids were given shit education on a good day.

Furthermore, the alt-right are a mixed coalition of Klansmen, Nazis, new-wave white-supremacists and neo-Nazis, ultramisogynists, "incel" death cultists, and other nasty jackasses who are broadly aligned in their bigoted, totalitarian, and otherwise fascist or proto-fascist political views. I shouldn't have to tell you this because you should be able to research this shit on your FUCKING own.

And again--I'm only bringing up race because it's literally about race and has been from the start. It's like saying "Why are you talking about Janeway, Worffan?" when having a discussion about the Captains of the USS Voyager.

[Darth Wedgius]

I thought the alt-right were white supremacists? Again you're the one who keeps bringing up race. You keep trying to put words into my mouth. You're poisoning the well -- look it up if you don 't get the reference.

As far as the rest goes, I never said anything about WASPs. You're the one that keeps bringing up race, remember? Nor did I say anything about anyone being "immune" to corruption. Another case of you trying to put words into my mouth. Education? About 45% of Mexican students finish high school. And do I need to bring sources in for ranking countries by individualism? Here's one for you:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scienc ... essed.html

What exactly is your point here? I've made it abundantly clear that your argument about culture being somehow responsible for the economic state of Latin America is literally a re-painting of age-old racist bullshit narratives, which have been used against the Irish, Italians, African-Americans, Chinese, Poles, etc. throughout American history. "Laziness is a trait in blacks" (as 45 said), "Protestant Work Ethic", it's all the same bullshit narrative with different buzzwords.

45% of Mexicans finish high school because the Mexican economy is in the toilet from decades of one-party quasi-populist rule followed by disastrous free-market "reforms" in the '80s and '90s to curry favor with that idiot Reagan and his Pinochet-backing toady Milton Friedman, and income inequality and corruption have become so awful that most kids literally need to drop out of school to work as soon as they can. You might as well say that late 19th century American culture was inferior, or Jim-Crow-era African-American culture was inferior, because most Gilded Age kids had to work in shithole factories to keep their families alive, and Jim Crow-era black kids were given shit education on a good day.

Furthermore, the alt-right are a mixed coalition of Klansmen, Nazis, new-wave white-supremacists and neo-Nazis, ultramisogynists, "incel" death cultists, and other nasty jackasses who are broadly aligned in their bigoted, totalitarian, and otherwise fascist or proto-fascist political views. I shouldn't have to tell you this because you should be able to research this shit on your FUCKING own.

And again--I'm only bringing up race because it's literally about race and has been from the start. It's like saying "Why are you talking about Janeway, Worffan?" when having a discussion about the Captains of the USS Voyager.

Because I never mentioned race. I mentioned culture. Because I never said I wanted immigration kept to a rate where the immigrants become white, I said I want immigration kept to a rate where the immigrants assimilate. Because culture and race are only the same in the minds of the far left and far right.

[Worffan101]

Tell me, what is so bad about Mexican culture? How exactly will it hurt the USA to have Mexicans or people from Central America arrive en masse? We don't even HAVE a unified culture! The USA has so many different people of so many different origins it isn't even funny. My dad's side is Scots-Irish (lowland Scots who immigrated to Ulster and then to America in the 17th century) Presbyterians going back before the Revolution and my mom's part-Potawatomi and part Saxon German. I'm an atheist whose immediate family celebrates Christmas as a family dinner and present-exchange with no major religious elements, none of us have stepped foot in a church for a decade at least, we ate a mixture of Italian, Thai, and English dishes for most of my childhood, we speak English and play gridiron and regular football both, etc.. How much of that is a unified American cultural tradition? What even IS a unified American cultural tradition? Is there ANY culture that we have failed to adapt, adapt to, and integrate?

Also, the alt-right LOVES to say "I'm not racist, I just don't like their culture!". It's something they picked up from the neocons, and it's been their biggest success story, to the point that it's one of Michael Burnham's arguments for attacking the Klingons in STD.

Don't give me this bullshit, Darth. You have to be better than this.

[Robovski]

You are the one calling things racist and making this about race. It's like you cannot argue this without making it about racism.

...because it's pretty much always about racism? Especially when people start literally retreading 19th century arguments about how "that country of brown people is in a bad state because of their culture" or whatever.

Racism is very much alive and well, pal. It's just been given a facelift by the neo-Nazis on hives like 8chan and Gab.

Somehow the racism is always other people, not in the soft expectations of the people calling people racists, the interpretation that illegal immigrants are just brown people, that uncontrolled immigration could be a bad thing for the countries these people leave, the same countries that are amazing places with a deep culture that somehow isn't worth staying in, that the cleptocratic governments in power in those places do not deserve criticism because somehow that is racist too...

But it's all racism, racism all the way down.