Doctor Who: The Girl Who Died / The Woman Who Lived

[TheOneTrueJack]

The idea that the Doctor cares too much also doesn't track with his actions in the prior season. Moon about to blow up and collide with Earth? Doctor runs away and leaves Clara and a school child to face the consequences of possible human extinction.

It was a natural disaster. The Doctor's logic was that it wasn't his place to make this decision for humanity. Also, in the end it implies he was pretty sure humanity wasn't in any real danger anyway. It's not like he left in the middle of an alien invasion or anything.

Still walked away. At best, he's emotionally abusing Clara with a false dilemma.

Well yeah, he's a dick. No one's arguing against that. That was the emotional hook to that episode and why Clara left. He was so concerned with doing the right thing and his internal morality, his actions appeared cruel from the outside.

Dream lobsters are slowly killing a few humans? Doctor says, "Not my problem", and walks away, saying that eventually humans will start eating them with dipping sauce, and only helps when he realizes his own life is on the line as well.

At that point he had already saved them from the dream crabs, so the immediate danger had passed. Once he realised that the threat wasn't over, he rushed back.

No, they were still in danger. He just extricated himself when the mystery was over. I know the Doctor has a habit of letting things fester due to his apathy, but this was while people were still in danger.

He saved the people who were in immediate danger, and when he thought the only people left in danger were beyond help, he left. He's a dick, but he clearly cares. Otherwise he wouldn't have helped at all.

Humanity is fighting a terrible war against the Daleks and in need of help? He walks away because they're 'soldiers' fighting a war and that's terrible, they should all die for such actions.

He saved the soldier that he happened across, like he always does. After that what was he supposed to do? Stop the war, defeat all the Daleks? By that logic he should stop every war ever. At a certain point it's out of the Doctor's hands.

Maybe try and not be an inch away from spitting on them for defending their home from the most evil things if the universe? Or equating fighting against Daleks as being evil? What are they supposed to do, just line up and let the Daleks shoot them?

No, but that's not the Doctor's problem. He's a dick who belittles people for little to no reason. But he still saved the woman who was about to die, and that's what matters. Twelve might verbally assault or ridicule you, he may even make you feel terrible, but he'll still save you in a heartbeat, even at risk to his own life.

Aliens are coming through Earth via a dimension? Doctor falsely accuses a man of a crime to take his job and sets up his experiment to bring them through in a school with children, needlessly putting them in danger.

But even then he's still trying to stop the monster and save lives. Is he being arrogant and reckless? Sure, but he's still trying to do the right thing and save people.

Maybe not get someone imprisoned for life for a crime they didn't commit or endanger children just because he wants to be near Clara as he tries to save the world?

The alien was already in the area so the children were already in danger. The fact that the Doctor didn't try to summon it until night shows that he was thinking of the children's safety though.

Not sure what you mean by "imprisoned for life", I don't remember anything like that in the episode.

This "The Doctor cares too much, and acts callous because of it", only works if he actually acted to help, and wasn't one to actually make people's lives worse, or run away if he doesn't have to do anything about it.

I don't think there's any point where Twelve just walks away from a problem or actively tries to make people's lives worse. He may think certain problems are out of his hands, or he may mess up on occasion, but that's different.

Tomato, to-mah-to. The 12th Doctor 's empathy is so low that the Doctor is seemingly careless about humans, proving Missy right that we're just the puppies that he occasionally plays with and looks after.

Missy will kill random people she doesn't know just for fun. The Doctor will sacrifice his life to save random people he doesn't know just because it's the right thing to do. That's the difference.

Twelve is not a nice person. He's rude, arrogant, condescending, inconsiderate of other people's feelings, etc.

But he does care, and whenever someone is in danger he does all he can to intervene and save them. His main goal in every episode is trying to stop the monster and save as many people as possible. He's just not nice about it.

[Beelzquill]

While I agree with the overall point that the doctor shouldn't be condemned because he doesn't deal with all the long term fallout of his actions, I don't think the analogy for ashildr's (Btw, I hate that she goes by the name me but whatever) situation is appropriate. The doctor didn't give her a spare tire when she had a flat tire on the side of the road. she died and the doctor decided to possibly give her immortality. Now I haven't seen the girl who died other than the review, but while a doctor shouldn't be paralyzed by indecision, he shouldn't just permanently change a person's biology and not try to at least give her some warning? Maybe he did at the end of the first episode, but the way chuck talked about it, it seemed like he just left after she came back.

[Jonathan101]

He left after she came back and popped in to check up on her at random over the centuries.

[Beelzquill]

Ah, serves me right for not watching the episode.

[FaxModem1]

The idea that the Doctor cares too much also doesn't track with his actions in the prior season. Moon about to blow up and collide with Earth? Doctor runs away and leaves Clara and a school child to face the consequences of possible human extinction.

It was a natural disaster. The Doctor's logic was that it wasn't his place to make this decision for humanity. Also, in the end it implies he was pretty sure humanity wasn't in any real danger anyway. It's not like he left in the middle of an alien invasion or anything.

Still walked away. At best, he's emotionally abusing Clara with a false dilemma.

Well yeah, he's a dick. No one's arguing against that. That was the emotional hook to that episode and why Clara left. He was so concerned with doing the right thing and his internal morality, his actions appeared cruel from the outside.

So, a dramatic version of this, then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtRb4qEpWRg

Yeah, I can't see why I should root for the Doctor then.

Dream lobsters are slowly killing a few humans? Doctor says, "Not my problem", and walks away, saying that eventually humans will start eating them with dipping sauce, and only helps when he realizes his own life is on the line as well.

At that point he had already saved them from the dream crabs, so the immediate danger had passed. Once he realised that the threat wasn't over, he rushed back.

No, they were still in danger. He just extricated himself when the mystery was over. I know the Doctor has a habit of letting things fester due to his apathy, but this was while people were still in danger.

He saved the people who were in immediate danger, and when he thought the only people left in danger were beyond help, he left. He's a dick, but he clearly cares. Otherwise he wouldn't have helped at all.

No, they were still in danger. He just left. He came for the mystery. Once solved, he was good to go. He only stayed because he didn't know what was going on. He seemed more concerned about the fact Santa and his elves were there than the fact that people were in danger.

Humanity is fighting a terrible war against the Daleks and in need of help? He walks away because they're 'soldiers' fighting a war and that's terrible, they should all die for such actions.

He saved the soldier that he happened across, like he always does. After that what was he supposed to do? Stop the war, defeat all the Daleks? By that logic he should stop every war ever. At a certain point it's out of the Doctor's hands.

Maybe try and not be an inch away from spitting on them for defending their home from the most evil things if the universe? Or equating fighting against Daleks as being evil? What are they supposed to do, just line up and let the Daleks shoot them?

No, but that's not the Doctor's problem. He's a dick who belittles people for little to no reason. But he still saved the woman who was about to die, and that's what matters. Twelve might verbally assault or ridicule you, he may even make you feel terrible, but he'll still save you in a heartbeat, even at risk to his own life.

In the Doctor's own words:

The Doctor : People. Daleks need protein. Occasionally harvest from their victims. This is a feeding tube.

Journey Blue : Was Ross here?

The Doctor : Yeah, top layer if you want to say a few words.

Ross clearly was not a concern for the Doctor.

Aliens are coming through Earth via a dimension? Doctor falsely accuses a man of a crime to take his job and sets up his experiment to bring them through in a school with children, needlessly putting them in danger.

But even then he's still trying to stop the monster and save lives. Is he being arrogant and reckless? Sure, but he's still trying to do the right thing and save people.

Maybe not get someone imprisoned for life for a crime they didn't commit or endanger children just because he wants to be near Clara as he tries to save the world?

The alien was already in the area so the children were already in danger. The fact that the Doctor didn't try to summon it until night shows that he was thinking of the children's safety though.

Not sure what you mean by "imprisoned for life", I don't remember anything like that in the episode.

The Doctor gets a guy fired and arrested so that there's an opening at the school. It's implied that he framed the guy for some sort of sexual crime. The last time the Doctor tried to infiltrate a school, he used a winning lottery ticket from knowing the numbers from the future and depositing them on some teacher's porch.

This, and endangering children, where they would likely be(at a school), shows his concern about collateral damage. He has none.

I don't think there's any point where Twelve just walks away from a problem or actively tries to make people's lives worse. He may think certain problems are out of his hands, or he may mess up on occasion, but that's different.

Tomato, to-mah-to. The 12th Doctor 's empathy is so low that the Doctor is seemingly careless about humans, proving Missy right that we're just the puppies that he occasionally plays with and looks after.

Missy will kill random people she doesn't know just for fun. The Doctor will sacrifice his life to save random people he doesn't know just because it's the right thing to do. That's the difference.

Twelve is not a nice person. He's rude, arrogant, condescending, inconsiderate of other people's feelings, etc.

But he does care, and whenever someone is in danger he does all he can to intervene and save them. His main goal in every episode is trying to stop the monster and save as many people as possible. He's just not nice about it.

The issue is, yeah, he's a dick. Needlessly so, to the point of endangering others. To the point that it's a valid concern of whether or not people will die just because the Doctor doesn't care. It's not actively killing, it's just killing by omission and shrugging it off. It'd be like seeing Superman at the end of Man of Steel not giving a crap that millions just died in Metropolis. Just a day at the office, ho hum.

[TheOneTrueJack]

The idea that the Doctor cares too much also doesn't track with his actions in the prior season. Moon about to blow up and collide with Earth? Doctor runs away and leaves Clara and a school child to face the consequences of possible human extinction.

It was a natural disaster. The Doctor's logic was that it wasn't his place to make this decision for humanity. Also, in the end it implies he was pretty sure humanity wasn't in any real danger anyway. It's not like he left in the middle of an alien invasion or anything.

Still walked away. At best, he's emotionally abusing Clara with a false dilemma.

Well yeah, he's a dick. No one's arguing against that. That was the emotional hook to that episode and why Clara left. He was so concerned with doing the right thing and his internal morality, his actions appeared cruel from the outside.

So, a dramatic version of this, then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtRb4qEpWRg

Yeah, I can't see why I should root for the Doctor then.

To be fair, you have chosen the episode where we're supposed to think the Doctor went to far.

Dream lobsters are slowly killing a few humans? Doctor says, "Not my problem", and walks away, saying that eventually humans will start eating them with dipping sauce, and only helps when he realizes his own life is on the line as well.

At that point he had already saved them from the dream crabs, so the immediate danger had passed. Once he realised that the threat wasn't over, he rushed back.

No, they were still in danger. He just extricated himself when the mystery was over. I know the Doctor has a habit of letting things fester due to his apathy, but this was while people were still in danger.

He saved the people who were in immediate danger, and when he thought the only people left in danger were beyond help, he left. He's a dick, but he clearly cares. Otherwise he wouldn't have helped at all.

No, they were still in danger. He just left. He came for the mystery. Once solved, he was good to go. He only stayed because he didn't know what was going on. He seemed more concerned about the fact Santa and his elves were there than the fact that people were in danger.

They were still in danger, but it wasn't the immediate danger as before? Should the Doctor have stuck around to make sure nothing else would happen? Possibly, but I think taking off when you think you've done all you can is still pretty much in character.

Humanity is fighting a terrible war against the Daleks and in need of help? He walks away because they're 'soldiers' fighting a war and that's terrible, they should all die for such actions.

He saved the soldier that he happened across, like he always does. After that what was he supposed to do? Stop the war, defeat all the Daleks? By that logic he should stop every war ever. At a certain point it's out of the Doctor's hands.

Maybe try and not be an inch away from spitting on them for defending their home from the most evil things if the universe? Or equating fighting against Daleks as being evil? What are they supposed to do, just line up and let the Daleks shoot them?

No, but that's not the Doctor's problem. He's a dick who belittles people for little to no reason. But he still saved the woman who was about to die, and that's what matters. Twelve might verbally assault or ridicule you, he may even make you feel terrible, but he'll still save you in a heartbeat, even at risk to his own life.

In the Doctor's own words:

The Doctor : People. Daleks need protein. Occasionally harvest from their victims. This is a feeding tube.

Journey Blue : Was Ross here?

The Doctor : Yeah, top layer if you want to say a few words.

Ross clearly was not a concern for the Doctor.

Ross was already dead, the Doctor was concerned with keeping the others alive. Sure, he didn't show any respect for their dead friend or that their emotions, but I already freely admit Twelve is a dick.

Aliens are coming through Earth via a dimension? Doctor falsely accuses a man of a crime to take his job and sets up his experiment to bring them through in a school with children, needlessly putting them in danger.

But even then he's still trying to stop the monster and save lives. Is he being arrogant and reckless? Sure, but he's still trying to do the right thing and save people.

Maybe not get someone imprisoned for life for a crime they didn't commit or endanger children just because he wants to be near Clara as he tries to save the world?

The alien was already in the area so the children were already in danger. The fact that the Doctor didn't try to summon it until night shows that he was thinking of the children's safety though.

Not sure what you mean by "imprisoned for life", I don't remember anything like that in the episode.

The Doctor gets a guy fired and arrested so that there's an opening at the school. It's implied that he framed the guy for some sort of sexual crime. The last time the Doctor tried to infiltrate a school, he used a winning lottery ticket from knowing the numbers from the future and depositing them on some teacher's porch.

This, and endangering children, where they would likely be(at a school), shows his concern about collateral damage. He has none.

I'd have to rewatch the episode, but from my recollection he got rid of the caretaker by hypnotizing them with a pleasant fantasy, so he could take their place. I feel you might have read that scene wrong.

As for the children, they were already in danger. The Doctor was just trying to sort the problem.

I don't think there's any point where Twelve just walks away from a problem or actively tries to make people's lives worse. He may think certain problems are out of his hands, or he may mess up on occasion, but that's different.

Tomato, to-mah-to. The 12th Doctor 's empathy is so low that the Doctor is seemingly careless about humans, proving Missy right that we're just the puppies that he occasionally plays with and looks after.

Missy will kill random people she doesn't know just for fun. The Doctor will sacrifice his life to save random people he doesn't know just because it's the right thing to do. That's the difference.

Twelve is not a nice person. He's rude, arrogant, condescending, inconsiderate of other people's feelings, etc.

But he does care, and whenever someone is in danger he does all he can to intervene and save them. His main goal in every episode is trying to stop the monster and save as many people as possible. He's just not nice about it.

The issue is, yeah, he's a dick. Needlessly so, to the point of endangering others. To the point that it's a valid concern of whether or not people will die just because the Doctor doesn't care. It's not actively killing, it's just killing by omission and shrugging it off. It'd be like seeing Superman at the end of Man of Steel not giving a crap that millions just died in Metropolis. Just a day at the office, ho hum.
[/quote]
The Doctor isn't Superman, he's just a bloke in a box trying his best.

But I get it. Twelve was in many ways a much more broken and morally complex version of the character than we're used to seeing. I loved it, but I understand it rubbing some people the wrong way.

[FaxModem1]

To be fair, you have chosen the episode where we're supposed to think the Doctor went too far.

That's the point. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, the Doctor is acting less than moral as compared to previous iterations, to a somewhat malevolent, if not sociopathic level.

They were still in danger, but it wasn't the immediate danger as before? Should the Doctor have stuck around to make sure nothing else would happen? Possibly, but I think taking off when you think you've done all you can is still pretty much in character.

Okay, let's look at a similar example, say, "Aliens in London/World War III", what would have happened if the Doctor left after examining the pig creature, because the mystery was solved, and there was no immediate danger? Earth still gets nuked to high heavens, because he walks away, even though things are still unresolved.

It's showing a higher level of apathy in the 12th Doctor as compared to previous iterations, due to his seeming nonchalance that humanity is dealing with something they don't know how to deal with, and he walks away rather than help them get involved. Luckily, this is rectified with the character in later iterations, such as dealing with the Monks in Series 11, and actually staying and helping, as opposed to walking away once he's safe.

Ross was already dead, the Doctor was concerned with keeping the others alive. Sure, he didn't show any respect for their dead friend or that their emotions, but I already freely admit Twelve is a dick.

The Doctor was practically dragged into helping. It's almost as if he wasn't forced to help, he would have left them to die. That's beyond being a dick, that's being apathetic and contributing because he's forced to do so.

The alien was already in the area so the children were already in danger. The fact that the Doctor didn't try to summon it until night shows that he was thinking of the children's safety though.

If the alien was in the area, he could have rented out a local office building or empty apartment, or anywhere else and set up his devices there. He specifically chose to integrate himself into a school, risking children's lives if anything goes wrong(which it did).

If I think there's a gas leak at a school nearby, and for whatever reason I'm the one to have to deal with it. I probably should make sure no one is going to die to my lighting a match in said potential gas leak area.

I'd have to rewatch the episode, but from my recollection he got rid of the caretaker by hypnotizing them with a pleasant fantasy, so he could take their place. I feel you might have read that scene wrong.

As for the children, they were already in danger. The Doctor was just trying to sort the problem.

I stand corrected, he made the guy think he had the flu. So instead of intentionally imprisoning him, he just made him think he was near death's door with the flu via hypnosis.

I think I'd much prefer the lottery ticket, wouldn't you?

And he still endangered children via dangerous methods, such as putting a bunch of devices that could be easily grabbed by children during school hours. Especially when we see an empty building in the episode where the cop gets killed. He intentionally chose an inhabited building as opposed to an empty one.

Missy will kill random people she doesn't know just for fun. The Doctor will sacrifice his life to save random people he doesn't know just because it's the right thing to do. That's the difference.

Twelve is not a nice person. He's rude, arrogant, condescending, inconsiderate of other people's feelings, etc.

But he does care, and whenever someone is in danger he does all he can to intervene and save them. His main goal in every episode is trying to stop the monster and save as many people as possible. He's just not nice about it.

There's a difference between being rude, and intentionally endangering others, he does the latter.

The issue is, yeah, he's a dick. Needlessly so, to the point of endangering others. To the point that it's a valid concern of whether or not people will die just because the Doctor doesn't care. It's not actively killing, it's just killing by omission and shrugging it off. It'd be like seeing Superman at the end of Man of Steel not giving a crap that millions just died in Metropolis. Just a day at the office, ho hum.

The Doctor isn't Superman, he's just a bloke in a box trying his best.

But I get it. Twelve was in many ways a much more broken and morally complex version of the character than we're used to seeing. I loved it, but I understand it rubbing some people the wrong way.

9 was rude, I can understand rude. His intentionally harming others, not so much.

[Thebestoftherest]

Ashildr what is everyone thought on her?

[Jonathan101]

Ashildr what is everyone thought on her?

I think the general consensus is that she was more or less okay in the first three episodes but kind of pointless in the finale. She also raises all kinds of unnecessary questions about the lore (like, if she's immortal by stolen alien tech, why did future humans not create it themselves? Why is SHE the only immortal human?), and she gets an immortal companion in her second appearance who is immediately dropped in her third. And, of course, the Doctor doesn't come off as especially competent or ethical as he could be.

Basically...she has her moments, but never really takes off. Interesting idea, Moffat execution.

[Sir Will]

Yeah that's a pretty good explanation.