Batman v Superman and The Last Jedi Parallels

[Winter]

I wrote up a article in regards to a number of story Parallels between Batman v Superman and The Last Jedi and went over why I wasn't a fan of either film. Here's the article in question if anyone here is interested and let me know what if there are any Parallels between the two films you may have noticed.

https://www.deviantart.com/winterthe-ma ... -789954620

Please keep all comments polite and civil.

[Worffan101]

All that really needs to be said is that both were meandering aimless badly-structured messes with shit dialogue, boring and annoying characters, obsessively grim and moody attitudes, and incoherent messages.

[MixedDrops]

I enjoyed the read, a well-written and well thought-out post. Like you, I mostly dislike both BvS and TLJ, but I actually think both have a lot of merits and interested ideas buried throughout, so I think if I have any big disagreements to be had with you, it's that I feel that it's rather unfair to accuse the movies of being completely empty or only going for spectacle over story. Rather, my problem with the movies is that they do not take full advantage of the great ideas they have within.

If I may compare to another movie- Star Trek V. That movie could've actually been the greatest Trek film in the series, with a lofty goal as "The Enterprise crew seeks God and meaning in the universe". Of course I'd easily put STV as an even biggest clusterfuck than either BvS or TLJ in that regard, probably because STV was written to be a comedy from the onset which doomed it to failure, whereas I feel like BvS and TLJ aim high but don't hit the mark.

I guess I'll go to any header to see if I have anything to add or disagree with:

Pointless Subplot

I agree with the idea that having a plot be inconsequential to the story is bad, but I don't think that actually completely applies to TLJ, because Rose is a completely new character. The Casino Planet is basically purely character development for her, even if they completely missed the mark with Finn.

My problem with it is that it's completely toothless. When the movie first came out some people seemed to complain that the movie had a blatant anti-capitalist message, which shows that they probably weren't paying enough attention because Rose specifically says she doesn't really have a problem with people making money, just people making money through exploitation and violence. If there's a problem with it, it's that it's a completely toothless "Greed is bad" message, which...well, I get Star Wars is a kid's franchise at the end of the day, but is that really the best they could come up with? The rest of TLJ is at least trying for, in my view, a pretty complex and interesting plot with Luke Skywalker, so it just seems weird to put such a Saturday-Morning Cartoon style message in the middle of the movie like that. Plus it doesn't really feel relevant to any of the movie's other themes at all.

That aside, it just wasn't an enjoyable section of the movie for me. The Casino planet didn't capture my imagination and I didn't find the antics of Finn/Rose entertaining on their own. Obviously that's more personal taste, but that's my take.

I don't have much to say about the Lois subplot in BvS you didn't already say.

Spectacle Over Story

While I once again agree with your assessment of BvS's nightmare scenes felt like empty tributes to TDKR, I actually pretty heavily disagree with your assessment of Rey's scene- after you know the big plot twist of Rey's parents (that they were basically nobodies, and Rey knew the whole time), the mirror scene takes on a very different context.

When I first saw the scene, I was actually a bit puzzled. I wasn't sure how seeing reflections of herself was relevant to Rey's desire to know more about her parents, but the ending puts it into context- she knew all along who they were, and she was simply denying that fact the whole time, because she wanted to create a very specific self-image of herself being descended from greatness. The mirrors were showing how self-absorbed she was.

One line Rey says to Luke is one I remember very clearly:

"I need someone to show me my place in all this."

Because Rey has come across these Jedi powers and doesn't understand why, she seeks the council of the great Luke Skywalker. Maybe she'll get some answers. Subconsciously she blocks out the memory that her parents were nobodies who threw her away.

It has a meta-aspect to it too- everyone keeps asking "well, who's Rey descended from if she's so powerful? Is she Luke/Obi-Wan's daughter or something?" Rey herself is basically a fangirl with these same questions in mind. If she has these powers, then surely, she was born with a greater destiny?

To me, the Luke/Rey/Kylo story in TLJ is the one most ripe with complex ideas. I actually feel like it succeeds in most of it, and most of my problems lie in the fine details that make it much weaker than it otherwise could've been.

Poor Treatment of Luke and Superman

I actually think if BvS has a problem, its that Superman is held up too highly. That might sound odd, but basically what I mean is that the movie wants to send the signal (especially through that montage of Superman saving people) that humanity isn't really worth saving, but Superman bites the bullet and does it anyway. In a way that's true to the original idea of Superman, and the movie is simultaneously trying to be this weird meta-commentary that if Superman really existed in real life, he'd be too good for us.

Unlike a lot of people I wouldn't actually mind DC going for a darker tone, and I don't think a brooding Supes in and of itself would've been a bad thing, but they just need moments like Wonder Woman had in her movie, where Superman stands up and says, "humanity might be flawed, but they're worth saving anyway".

I've probably already made it clear, but I actually don't mind Luke becoming a broken character. I'm on the side of people who can accept Luke maybe faltering for a moment with Ben as described, given that if we were only going to take the Luke from the movies, he's always had some problems with anger and impulse control.

I definitely agree with their deaths not being done that well though. I mean, to be fair, beaming such a realistic image of yourself several lightyears across the galaxy is a power we haven't seen before, and I imagine it probably takes plenty of power and focus to do something like that, but it's just not cinematically that interesting. Those final shots (with the twin sun or even Superman being cradled) were good at least.

Drawn Out Ending

Personally I think it's more accurate to say "way too much stuff in one movie", ala Spiderman 3, than I think problems with the endings in isolation.

Ending TLJ with Kylo's outstretched hand would've been a great ending, I agree that much. The rest of it does have problems, but I feel some of them are exaggerated (it's likely Finn would've just died instead of actually stopping the drill for instance- it still doesn't make Rose's line afterwards any better though).

And Doomsday should've been saved for another movie, as many others have said. That solves a lot of BvS's ending problems right there.

Not Enough Focus on Main Character

I think I've already outlined above why I might think this isn't true for Rey- I think it actually has a lot of interesting things going on there. Rey asks for guidance because she's in denial of the truth behind her own past.

As for Supes, I think the movie had a lot of good little moments that could've become great had they expanded on the ideas. I think all the things leading up to the courtroom scene for Supes could've been great- him having self-doubts as to whether or not he's truly doing good for the world, and him turning himself in because he feels he should show everyone has nothing to fear, etc. The big problem is that they undermine the entire plot by:

1. Making it so that the lady accusing her was simply intimidated into testifying against him, which neuters the validity of Supes' self doubts
2. Blowing up the courtroom and cutting off what could've been a pretty interesting moment- even that by itself would've be a big deal if they showed it increasing the public's distrust in Superman, but then it basically doesn't really come up again.

Gotta run for now, but hopefully I've given you some stuff to discuss/think about.

[Madner Kami]

It has a meta-aspect to it too- everyone keeps asking "well, who's Rey descended from if she's so powerful? Is she Luke/Obi-Wan's daughter or something?" Rey herself is basically a fangirl with these same questions in mind. If she has these powers, then surely, she was born with a greater destiny?

Um, this is the Star Wars Universe, where the Force actively tries to maintain a measure of balance (where this balance lies is up to debate, but it happens one way or another). The Force is literally alive and has a will of it's own. If a Force prodigy is born, then it is because the Force wants that child to do something specific. This happens all the time. There literally is noone in the Star Wars universe, who is both powerful and Force-sensitive and has no greater destiny. These things are incompatible in the Star Wars universe.

[MixedDrops]

Right, but I was speaking of Rey's (and some fans') mindset, not that it was actually true. My whole point is that the idea is wrong, because Rey was wrong. Rey's parentage is decidedly not one of "noble" origin (for lack of a better descriptor). It's not really an inconsistency when Rey herself thinks it, since she has no good understanding of the Force.

Also this is of course assuming Ep.9 doesn't just come along and screw it all over by making Rey actually descended from Obi-Wan or some shit. Different director/writers and all that.

[Madner Kami]

Also this is of course assuming Ep.9 doesn't just come along and screw it all over by making Rey actually descended from Obi-Wan or some shit. Different director/writers and all that.

Do you want to make a bet on that? I wouldn't, because Johnson was so thoroughly in "subverting" everything, that JJ is left with no story-hooks anymore. He's left to either build up and play out completely new story-hooks in a movie that is, technically, designed as part of a trilogy and has almost nothing connecting it to the other movies, other than "Rebellion that consists of a handful of rebels against the galaxy-spanning and galaxy-occupying First Order". Rey not having an important status is one of the easiest things to retcon, because we got that from an unreliable narrator (Kylo Ren.)

[MixedDrops]

I guess another question is, even if JJ decides to undo that, does that take away from whatever artistic vision TLJ had in the first place, considering how it was...well, made before Ep 9, obviously.

[Yukaphile]

Because yeah, Disney is totally striving for "consistency" in their creative vision, aren't they? You know - that reason they cited for terminating Legends?

[MrL1992]

Another example of "let's compare these two things so we have an excuse to bitch about one of them in a new context!"

[Winter]

Another example of "let's compare these two things so we have an excuse to bitch about one of them in a new context!"

Once again, please keep all comments polite and civil. I'm okay with different opinions but please be nice about said opinions.