Who is the worst Captain?

[ifly6]

What is Earth or the SGC supposed to be actually getting from this?

Tech, ostensibly.

[Beastro]

Janew-!

(6) Matthew Marcus Captain of the Resolute: Exosquad

Damnit! Sabotaged!

Yeah, looking back, Atlantis wasn't that great a show. It's saving grace is how the characters interacted with each other as opposed to how they interacted with the world around them. I mean, it's aged better than some other shows I liked at the time then years late wonder why *cough*Charmed*cough*, but, yikes.

It wasn't looking at it at the time.

I was eager to see more Stargate, but I got the feeling from the opener that it wasn't going to have the same magic that SG1 inherited from the movie, it had strayed too far in the spiritual sense even if it didn't in a canonical one.

I gave it go and abandoned it while the first season was still going on.

It also reeked of that feeling most 90s syndicated sci-fi and fantasy series had, which despite SG1 being one of them it never had once it got its footing.

... and it tried too hard in its reaction to the developing 2000s just like Enterprise did when gritty, nastiness simply wasn't in the soul of the show. I was not surprised to see how the show developed in ways watching Chuck's recaps.

What is Earth or the SGC supposed to be actually getting from this?

TBH that isn't really Atlantis' fault. The premise as evolved by SG1 was too idealistic and reactionary to the threat of the Goa'uld. They ahd to stop them, and they did it in a way that directly impacted dealing with the threat without getting into the sticky business of dealing with both American national interest and global interest, especially how many other nations would react to a means of FTL and opening worlds up to colonization.

In short, Earth simply punched too far above their weight while essentially remaining one world with a few bases on planets that hadn't been formally claimed by the US or any other nation. They then brought down a galaxy spanning culture with the power of macguffins and then towards the end they began hinting that Earth was something of a major galactic hegemon, all of this taking place in the span of a few years.

As much as I love SG1, that annoys me.

Big time.

The premise worked with the SGC being the spear tip driving into an enemy over the course of a war that would last centuries at best with squads like SG1 running around gathering tech and doing little actions against the Goa'uld until more planets were colonized and industrialized and America and the rest of Earth's nations began to raise an actual intergalactic level military and political presence that would usher in the end stage of the war when it became a fully fledged conventional war.

Makes me feel that they shouldn't have simply ended the System Lords, but had the war continue in the back ground while SG1 got assigned to new tasks and new threats, stopping them before they got too big.

In the end I think the best thing would to consider what I think would be an interest scenario for a Stargate reboot and how it would develop from the opening: It's 1942 and with the Afrika Korp closing on El Alamein only to find British resistance has crumbled, a Stargate opened inside the Pyramid of Giza by a Goa'uld that remembered Earth was around still and decided to reconquer it. The Brits are now torn between two fronts in Egypt with the Germans and Italians realizing what the real threat is and that they have to work together to prevent an invasion of Earth that also results in WWII ending with an abrupt white peace once the invasion is contain and driven back.

Fast forward to the 60s when it's felt that Earth needs to venture out and see what threats are out there, only now the Great Powers are all pushing to send their teams out also include those colourful nations like Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy.

Going back to the back to the beginning: How do you think things would pan out in such a situation? It would look nothing like SG1 or Atlantis with planetary colonization and the full brunt of both the WWII and the Cold War war machine itching to kick Goa'uld ass as SG1 would have turned out had 1990s Earth found itself in the franchises predicaments.

[Durandal_1707]

What is Earth or the SGC supposed to be actually getting from this?

Tech, ostensibly.

They haven't gotten much tech that was of any use, though, have they? I guess they did heist a few ZPMs from the replicators that one time, but that was all the replicators and didn't have anything to do with Atlantis—and it probably would have actually been easier to pull that off from any old low-key, stealthy hidden base in the Pegasus Galaxy, no need for the big flashy city with the "Shoot Me" sign on it. There were a few invulnerability thingies... which they used up. There was that one Ancient ship... that they blew up. There was the Wraith ship... that they blew up. There was that ship full of actual living Ancients... that all got killed. There was the other ship full of actual living Ancients in suspended animation... that they blew up. There was the Ancient monastery that they almost blew up, and can't get back to without being trapped. There was the other Ancient base in the volcano that blew up. There was the replicator planet full of factories capable of actually making ZPMs... which they blew up. There was the Attero Device... which they blew up. After accidentally blowing up a crapton of stargates with it. Oh god! I almost forgot, there's another Ancient ship... that they blew up, off-screen!

Depressing goddamn show.

[Cassandra]

Bab5 shouldn't be entirely let off the hook here. The EarthForce captain who thought it was a good idea to shoot at the Minbari during first contact committed one of the stupidest character decisions in all of scifi as it very nearly resulted in the extermination of humanity.

Archer is responsible for more actual deaths, however.

[Durandal_1707]

I know I'm ranting here, but between awakening the Wraith early, setting off the Replicators, blowing up the Replicators' planet, and the carnage that the Attero Device unleashed, I'm pretty sure no one tops the Atlantis expedition's body count.

[Beastro]

I don't think this judgment is really fair, at least for the Star Trek Captains, because none of them are really written consistently. As others mentioned, sometimes Kirk is great, and sometimes you just want to punch him in the face ("Requiem for Methuselah" probably being the worst). Picard's a deadly mix of arrogance, incompetence, and assholishness in his first two seasons, but then gets much, much better after the writing staff turns over. Archer's much the same way—idiot for the first two seasons, pretty good captain after that. Janeway's all over the map depending on who was writing the script that week. Sisko's probably the most consistently written overall, but then he kinda goes nuts in the last season with all the "Space Jesus" crap in it. So...

Also: Bab5 shouldn't be excluded from this. You really think Sheridan with his Messiah complex, hiring people based on nepotism, etc. won't go over badly with anyone?

The problem is military figures being written by civvies, especially in the context of Star Trek and it's anti-militaristic bent (that in TOS was moderated by many more vets contributing than just Roddenberry).

The funny thing is a lot of those qualities of Sheridan add a bit to grounding his character. Such military leaders existed in history and will keep being a reoccurring thing. It also works with B5 because EarthForce is still a by the numbers human military, so it comes with all the faults built in.

To touch back on what I just said look what Sheridan was famous for in the Minbari War. He is effectively a JFK/PT109 like figure in people's eyes dialed up a few orders of magnitude. He is a man destined for politics in much the same way and with all the faults that come with it, while his messiah complex could arguably come from the fact that he's won Earth's only victory in a war that could have resulted in the extinction of Mankind.

If anything, he is too down to Earth and humble given all the helium that's been shoved into his head between then and him taking over B5.

Kirk remains timeless because he's the living example of a military man that was born and raised in a society like the Federation. He knows what his duty is, hell he loves carrying it out most of the time, but he's still a philosophor-citizin in the spirit one expects from a someone born and raised in the Federation.

Picard is the opposite, even as he gets better written later on. He's the kind of man you'd expect would realistically be commanding Star Fleet ships without a hint of military training, an overly principled and naively idealistic man that happens to be competent enough that he doesn't bring ruin down onto his crew and his country.

He is, now that I think about it, the secular, Sci-Fi equivalent of Lord Gambier, a man who annoyed both his superiors and inferiors by placing more importance upon his Evangelical leanings than he did with actually doing his bloody job. A man that was largely forgotten by history because of his private principles and professional incompetency while a far more flawed, but far more talented man in Nelson became a timeless national hero.

To remind those who don't know Nelson's life, this is a man that committed outright dereliction of duty while commanding an important theater of war when he decided it was more important for him to fall head over heels into his romance with Emma Hamilton than it was to even bother to send his flagship out to sea. It was only his talents and his people's belief in his talents that gave him his second chance, and death, at Trafalgar.

Janeway is the worst of all worlds, such as when she channels Picard she's all principle and no conscience. She is a character that literal reflects what kind of person would result if writers had control over a humans mind: She literally has a multiple personality disorder.

Archer has a consistent character and none of it is good. He is the best example in Sci-Fi of a naturally incompetent person being given a command and seeing how things constantly turned out in history. Everything bad about him leads directly back to his character, personality, temperament, judgement and competency too.

I mean even William Bligh was an incredibly talented officer constantly undermined by his incredibly terrible attitude and that's why he found himself assigned to supporting non-military, often scientific activities during his career rather than commanding a ship at war on station, which is what Archer's Enterprise is. Archer and Enterprise, like every other Trek Captain and ship, are more like Anson and his ships on their circumnavigation of the world mixing a scientific pursuit with a military mission than they are Cooke puttering around the Pacific surveying new islands.

I can see why Kirk looked up to him, it's because of the same reasons utter incompetent and nasty people are given good reputations by history: he's Earth's first Trek ship captain that led the charge towards the birth of the Federation. Of course he's a bloody legend that towers over others in his talents. If people knew the truth it would be humiliating and totally undermine the cultural and historical impact of his actions in much the same way you grow up hearing how larger than life and admired Caesar is, then you read about everything he did and... well.... he's just an asshole that did more to destroy his Republic than anyone else could dream possible, and all because of ego.

Sisko... well, one could see that in a man assigned to a far off colonial position that went native because of it.

[Robovski]

Bab5 shouldn't be entirely let off the hook here. The EarthForce captain who thought it was a good idea to shoot at the Minbari during first contact committed one of the stupidest character decisions in all of scifi as it very nearly resulted in the extermination of humanity.

Nah, on the contrary, it was stupid in the extreme for Minbari first contact to have the weapons run out and targeting alien ships as a ''sign of honor'' that in NO WAY could be construed as ''Oh shit, they are going to open fire on us.''

[ScreamingDoom]

Nah, on the contrary, it was stupid in the extreme for Minbari first contact to have the weapons run out and targeting alien ships as a ''sign of honor'' that in NO WAY could be construed as ''Oh shit, they are going to open fire on us.''

I think the idea was supposed to be that the Minbari are aliens and think in a completely alien mindset, so didn't think something that seemed an obvious threat to us would be construed as such. Especially since the Grey Council specifically avoided doing due diligence to research the new kids on the block humans.

Still, Minbari are human-minded enough to take offence at having their leader killed, but not enough to see coming out with a 'come at be bro!' military stance might be construed as threatening.

[Arkle]

Nah, on the contrary, it was stupid in the extreme for Minbari first contact to have the weapons run out and targeting alien ships as a ''sign of honor'' that in NO WAY could be construed as ''Oh shit, they are going to open fire on us.''

I think the idea was supposed to be that the Minbari are aliens and think in a completely alien mindset, so didn't think something that seemed an obvious threat to us would be construed as such. Especially since the Grey Council specifically avoided doing due diligence to research the new kids on the block humans.

Still, Minbari are human-minded enough to take offence at having their leader killed, but not enough to see coming out with a 'come at be bro!' military stance might be construed as threatening.

Dukat was smart enough to realize it. The last thing he did before he got killed was yelling at the Council to close the weapon ports so they wouldn't be seen as a threat. Too late though. :/

[Cassandra]

Nah, on the contrary, it was stupid in the extreme for Minbari first contact to have the weapons run out and targeting alien ships as a ''sign of honor'' that in NO WAY could be construed as ''Oh shit, they are going to open fire on us.''

First contact with a superior civilization is a situation where its far better to be a dead martyr rather than a living hero. The EarthForce captain wanted to be a hero, by putting the Minbari in their place, but instead he put humanity in its place and 250,000 people died in the process.

The captain of the Minbari fleet also deserves his own award for dereliction of duty for letting the human fleet get so close to the Grey Council fleet in the first place.