Police discussion/debate thread

[Yukaphile]

Well, while looking at Admiral X's reply to my final post in his gun enthusiast thread, it got me to thinking... so, here we are in this thread. A general police discussion/debate thread. First, my thoughts. Now while I'm no fan of police excess, I'm also not of the opinion they're "the enemy" or "America's biggest group of gangsters" as some people tend to say. Yes, the wide array of incidents is staggering and deplorable, but I've also met decent cops and seen cop shows like forensic files and so on where the police are not the enemy. They're just fallible human beings the way we are. I'm obviously in favor of stopping police outreach, but nor am I inclined to just demonize them as monsters either. You literally can't do that to 18,000 or so people.

[Admiral X]

My experience in the Air Force has taught me that there are generally three types of people who are attracted to these positions of authority - those who genuinely want to serve, those who are just trying to get by and earn a pay check, and bullies who enjoy having authority over others. The problem is, the first two examples at the very least make excuses for the bad actions of those in the last group, and with the police, it's become a very "us vs. them" mentality, where they tend to see themselves akin to soldiers fighting in Iraq against the insurgency. I've seen some really egregious actions from them which have gone unpunished. The death of Kelly Thomas is an excellent example, and what happened with Robert Leone is another, and about the only positive in that case is that in spite of their best efforts, they didn't manage to kill him.

youtu.be/O5eOknaXgYU

[Yukaphile]

I still think a lot of those in the 18,000+ cops or so in the US just "want to serve," as you put it. Getting angry at the crimes of others doesn't mean you should blame others with similar jobs or like them as if they were guilty too. Come on. It just makes you no different than them.

But you are right about what a position of authority, whether in the military or law enforcement, attracts in terms of who seeks it out.

[Madner Kami]

Lack of consquences for bad behaviour is a big problem, from what I can see across from Europe. Also, apparently, a considerable part of your police forces aren't even trained properly to do their jobs, which is another issue: lack of education on matters of law and proper proceedings. Yet another thing I keep being bedazzled about is, the militarization of your police forces. Something we are having as an increasing problem here in Europe as well. Police doesn't need military surplus vehicles or armaments or equipment that is needlessly martial in appearance, makeup or use. I see a need for armored police cars in an environment where everyone could and will have a gun, but for crying out loud, police does not need Humvees and AFVs. It straddles a line that should never be crossed, as was put so brilliantly by these words:

There’s a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.

Clothes make people. If I run around in military gear and sit in military vehicles, it doesn't take long till I think I am a military and all my problems are solved by the use of the biggest gun in my arsenal.

[Yukaphile]

Sigh, I bet this all goes back to Bush and Reagan. They deregulated EVERYTHING.

[Admiral X]

Oh, forgot to mention how ridiculous it's gotten with police killing the family dog as a standard operating procedure.

And it's not that I think all cops are fascists, it's that I'm not going to trust them or anything they say just because they're cops. Another great example would be the pipeline protests in my own state, where the police lied repeatedly about their own actions and those of the protestors.

youtu.be/LrLIz82fmyM

Edit: In case you're wondering what the result of that woman taking a grenade to the arm has been so far.

Edit 2: Oh yeah, the lie that really took the cake was the sheriff who claimed all those thousands of vets coming in to help the protestors were actually brainwashed, and that the Natives were planning on arming them and setting off their PTSD to get them to attack the police and guardsmen.

[Yukaphile]

We had to call the police on Jerry last year, to get him checked into a hospital because he was going off his meds and was becoming dangerous. It worked out fine. Seriously, if your mindset is "I won't call the police even if my life is in danger, but I will grab a gun and decide to be judge, jury, and executioner all on my own," well then, it's another reason I find Libertarians so frustrating, and will just get you hurt and killed.

[Beelzquill]

My issues with police is their procedure seems to be "don't risk your life for any reason" and shoot people if they move slightly. I'm not with the BLM crowd that overreacts every time the police shoot anyone, I try to wait for more information to come out and often I agree with the officer. A pattern I have noticed is these officers are really paranoid, and perhaps that's for good reason considering they don't know if this person they're pulling over are gonna randomly go for a gun and start shooting. I personally think the drug war escalated the problems in the U.S. by making it normal for police officers to do drug busts rather than addressing the actual problems like safety of normal people. The dog shooting thing really needs to stop, especially considering "swatting" is a thing, where police are called and lied to about some streamer having a hostage or something.

I went to a catholic school so I don't know exactly what public school education is like so I'm asking, do police officers ever come to the school to explain how you are supposed to act when stopped and why you're supposed to act that way? A police that was an uncle to one of my classmates came by when I was in seventh grade and explained it so I've never really had trouble interacting with police.

[Admiral X]

My issues with police is their procedure seems to be "don't risk your life for any reason" and shoot people if they move slightly. I'm not with the BLM crowd that overreacts every time the police shoot anyone, I try to wait for more information to come out and often I agree with the officer. A pattern I have noticed is these officers are really paranoid, and perhaps that's for good reason considering they don't know if this person they're pulling over are gonna randomly go for a gun and start shooting. I personally think the drug war escalated the problems in the U.S. by making it normal for police officers to do drug busts rather than addressing the actual problems like safety of normal people. The dog shooting thing really needs to stop, especially considering "swatting" is a thing, where police are called and lied to about some streamer having a hostage or something.

Pretty much my thoughts as well, and I'd say the "war on terror" made it even worse.

I went to a catholic school so I don't know exactly what public school education is like so I'm asking, do police officers ever come to the school to explain how you are supposed to act when stopped and why you're supposed to act that way? A police that was an uncle to one of my classmates came by when I was in seventh grade and explained it so I've never really had trouble interacting with police.

Yes, but the problem is that the police do not always live up to their end of it. Kind of like how they claim officers are trained to de-escalate situations, but I've very rarely seen any police officers living up to that. Just do a youtube search on police attacking people who are complying and you'll probably find plenty of examples. Another recent example that comes to mind is that guy they shot who was literally down on his knees in a hallway with his hands over his head. The reason? He was in his undies, and they were rather loose and kept falling down, and he kept reaching down to pull them back up again so he wouldn't expose himself. One of the officers threatened to shoot him if he didn't stop doing that (keep in mind this guy is drunk), he did, and the other officer who had the gun on him took that as permission to shoot the guy.

[Draco Dracul]

Quite frankly I think we need both federal standards for police training as well as a either a federal or mandated state level Internal Affairs department, with their own independent investigators and prosecutors, to help ensure accountability. Ideally when a police officer is investigated for wrong doing on the job it should be done by someone they have never met before and will never meet again as to avoid conflict of interest and prosecuted by someone that doesn't need a working relationship with the police department the defendant is from.

If that is not feasible, I think IA should be structured to work cross department, and change of venue should be standard for police prosecutions.

I'm willing to give the police the benefit of the doubt and say it's a few bad apples, but we seriously need to remove those apples lest they spoil the bunch.