A Doctor Who question

[Yukaphile]

From my reading of stories ahead, I'm curious why they retconned the Ninth Doctor genociding the Daleks and Time Lords to just make it so that he and the following iterations had the false memories that they did? It was a bold, ambitious, and frankly dark and gritty idea that I wish they hadn't retconned, even from my brief experience with New Who clips. Is it because of the old tired argument that "Who is a family-friendly show?" That argument is crap, of course, but I feel disappointed to learn the harshness and dark edge Eccleston had wasn't really true, it was just him thinking it was. I consider this on par with "Beerus telling Frieza to destroy Planet Vegeta" as far as retcons go, because then it takes away from the personal struggle and history the Saiyans had in beating Frieza on Namek.

[Sir Will]

It takes nothing away from how 9-11 felt. It was real to them, their reactions and the effect it had on them was real. But bringing Gallifrey back had story potential that Moffat then pissed away and it was nice for The Doctor to be able to move past the guilt of it. It had been part of his character long enough.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Story potential of Gallifrey aside - I kind of prefer when the Time Lords are a remote myth - in practical terms it solved the problem of how to get more Doctors once their twelve regenerations were up. Granted introducing the War Doctor accelerated the deadline, but even so they only had a couple to go and needed a fix. The Time Lords (once they'd been un-killed) granting new regenerations wasn't the only option - certainly DW's never been shy of just inventing new space magic whenever it needs to - but it wasn't a bad thing to use existing canon.

And I tend to agree the war guilt had gone on long enough - it was interesting, but I don't feel like it was something that could ever have been discarded from the Doctor's character, no matter how many times they'd regenerated, so long as the event itself stood as it was. DW's always been about reinventing itself; ultimately, it needed to have that freedom rather than being inflexibly bound to 2005's starting point.

[Yukaphile]

Then couldn't they have done so in a way without retconning those decisions? Again, it feels like it took some of the badass edge off the Ninth Doctor. I get wanting to bring the Time Lords back. But for God's sake, they have a flipping space/time vehicle! Surely they could have kept the genocide thing necessary. But some people might have felt that was "too far" for a pacifist like the Doctor, or that Who is "too family-friendly for that," which is again a false argument. The problem is I'm already in love with the Ninth Doctor from clips and reviews, and from what little I've seen of the latter iterations... well...

[MissKittyFantastico]

Then couldn't they have done so in a way without retconning those decisions?

I mean, they did - the War Doctor did choose to push the button. And the only way he was able to change his mind was with the benefit of his future selves' hindsight and regret - without, essentially, someone else giving him an out, he'd have continued to see the button as the only choice he could make. Now granted the event was undone, the Time Lords were saved the whole time Nine was angsting about wiping them out, but in a real sense he's still grappling with the knowledge that he is a man who could push that button, if circumstances back him into a corner hard enough. Something else - his future - stopped him, but in that moment his hand was coming down, and he himself was not going to stop himself. He believes he committed genocide (...again, but the Vervoids had it coming) - he was mistaken, as it turns out. He believes he's capable of genocide... well, he's not wrong.

If you're worried it amounts to justifying the Doctor's pacifism by way of wiping away anything that challenges it, well, wait until 'The Sontaran Inversion' - the Doctor's furious monologue at the end of that comes straight from a man who, even if he was saved at the last moment, was ready to press that button, and knows it.

[Sir Will]

Then couldn't they have done so in a way without retconning those decisions? Again, it feels like it took some of the badass edge off the Ninth Doctor. I get wanting to bring the Time Lords back. But for God's sake, they have a flipping space/time vehicle! Surely they could have kept the genocide thing necessary. But some people might have felt that was "too far" for a pacifist like the Doctor, or that Who is "too family-friendly for that," which is again a false argument. The problem is I'm already in love with the Ninth Doctor from clips and reviews, and from what little I've seen of the latter iterations... well...

...the only way to undo genocide is to prevent it ever happening. Which they did. And I have no idea what that bolded part you keep going on about is. He DID do it, originally, and was willing to do it again. And he talked of his regret often for 10 years. So what the hell do you mean?

[Yukaphile]

So it had originally happened? It was just changing it? Undoing it from history?

[Sir Will]

So it had originally happened? It was just changing it? Undoing it from history?

That's Chuck's interpretation and I guess mine too. Hard to really say when time travel and time loops and all that shit comes into play. But he was fully willing to do it. It was all those years of guilt, Clara's pleas, and the situation with the paintings that allowed him to come up with a long shot alternative. Whatever way it went down, his feelings were real and guided his character for a long time.

[Yukaphile]

Okay, cool. If there's that interpretation, I'll accept it too.

[clearspira]

Of course it actually happened originally. As time went on it was only the Doctor that ever talked of the time war, but in series 1 a good deal of the enemies he faced were ''higher beings'' who were devastated by the war. And then there is Davros and the Order of Skaro whose whole plot line revolved around it. There are no false memories. It happened and now it hasn't due to the fact they ran out of stories.