Babylon 5: A Distant Star

[Yukaphile]

Might cost more in the future too. Perhaps exorbitant shipping taxes.

[FaxModem1]

You know, Captain Maynard reminds me of Kyle Reese somehow. It's just a little something in the face. I wonder what became of him in the EA civil war and what he thought of Sheridan's actions...?

Total unknown. He's probably beyond the frontier, making jumpgates in previously unexplored territory, and in for a heck of a surprise when it's time for them to return to Earth space to resupply.

I'll repeat it again, from the last thread? The focus on character journey and little character moments like they have in this story, with Garibaldi just desperately trying to smuggle in his favorite meal for his birthday to honor his dad, and Sheridan having to cope with adapting to a new desk job, is what makes B5 special, and arguably a relic from a forgotten era, since as I've said elsewhere, TV shows and movies today, especially in the sci-fi genre, tend to put more emphasis on spectacle than character and story. Such a shame. I miss those days.

I like the concept, but I find the execution dragging a little. Down to personal taste though.

Tbh, having seen most of B5 now, I can confess I don't find Keffer that annoying. Don't get why Chuck hates the guy. IIRC he was taken out by the Shadows, but his footage survived to alert the galaxy to their presence? So at least his death had some good use.

Okay, so that explains the whole Heffer thing... kinda. But does a character REALLY need charisma to be a good character? Even if Keffer wasn't "THERE!" in a "putting himself out there" way, there are still average joes living everywhere, and one could argue Keffer is that in spades.

Remember, Keffer was inserted by network mandate, for there to be a hotshot pilot character. Then they forgot about their suggestion, and JMS had to roll with that. So, he did what he could, and made Keffer necessary to the overall plot. Problem is, Keffer is only meant to serve a purpose in the huge Shadow plot, and then disappear. That's why, until he gets that done, he's bland to watch.

Keffer is like a paperclip in your pocket. He doesn't really have much use until you find him, then once you're done with him, you can put him back in your pocket without really needing to think about him again. That's kind of his problem. In TV shows and movies, you can have recurring characters who aren't really the focus, and they do necessary exposition or necessary plot things to get the ball rolling, but aren't that important or interesting. One important thing is that we see them interact naturally with the main characters in some capacity. The difference between Keffer and someone like the cute David Corwin or the genuine blue collar Lou Walsh is that he's in the main credits, never appeared before, and we are expected to care about him solely because of that. And, most importantly, never talks to the other main characters in a way that felt necessary aside from his Moby Dick quest to find the Shadows.

What do we know about Keffer?

Keffer has a girl back home that he receives messages back home from, he goes on a quest to prove the Shadows are real, and......that's it. Does Keffer's quest affect him in any other way? No. Does it develop him as a character? No. Does it help define who he is? I guess. But that's all he is, a walking blank slate that the audience never really gets to know anything about. Mostly this is because he has no one else aside from guest characters to interact with, and he suffers for it.

Lou Walsh was originally one of Garibaldi's recurring faces. Someone the audience could see Garibaldi bounce off ideas of before Zack Allen arrived. We don't get that with Keffer, because he's the only pilot character, and doesn't really bounce dialogue off of Sheridan or Ivanova when in space.

Seriously, Lt. David Corwin was a character I cared more about and he was originally named Tech #2 in season 1. And we get a lot of mileage out of him because of his interactions with the other characters. Corwin is a kind of comedic foil to Ivanova, snarking whenever she makes a quip, nervous around authority and attention, good at his job, and very awkward around women.

Hell, I'd enjoy having the two janitor characters from season 5 as recurring greek chorus characters more than I would Keffer.

I always assumed to be lost in hyperspace would mean you'd spend eternity drifting through an empty void, and your supplies would run out and the ship would degrade, atmosphere would dissipate, and so on. I mean, if hyperspace is infinite like it is in some other works (like Z-space in Animorphs), then to stray too far from a gate is a death sentence, yes? Am I alone here?

JMS wanted hyperspace to be like traversing the ocean in the old Age of Sail, almost like for the Vikings. It's violent, turbulent, and dangerous, but it gets you from point A to point B quick. The problem is, like the Vikings, without landmarks or markers to show you where you are, you're lost, doomed to wander until you find another jumpgate to jump out of or die of starvation.

This episode made me wonder if bagna cauda tastes any good? I looked it up on the wiki, googled it online, and turns out it's a real Italian food. Go figure.

I actually made it due to this episode with friends, even followed the recipe from the Lurker's page. It's good if you like to fondue, but it's terrible on the hips. Hence why Garibaldi should only have it once a year.

[Yukaphile]

Total unknown. He's probably beyond the frontier, making jumpgates in previously unexplored territory, and in for a heck of a surprise when it's time for them to return to Earth space to resupply.

I can just about imagine that conversation... "You mean Captain Sheridan did WHAT?!"

Remember, Keffer was inserted by network mandate, for there to be a hotshot pilot character. Then they forgot about their suggestion, and JMS had to roll with that. So, he did what he could, and made Keffer necessary to the overall plot. Problem is, Keffer is only meant to serve a purpose in the huge Shadow plot, and then disappear. That's why, until he gets that done, he's bland to watch.

Keffer is like a paperclip in your pocket. He doesn't really have much use until you find him, then once you're done with him, you can put him back in your pocket without really needing to think about him again. That's kind of his problem. In TV shows and movies, you can have recurring characters who aren't really the focus, and they do necessary exposition or necessary plot things to get the ball rolling, but aren't that important or interesting. One important thing is that we see them interact naturally with the main characters in some capacity. The difference between Keffer and someone like the cute David Corwin or the genuine blue collar Lou Walsh is that he's in the main credits, never appeared before, and we are expected to care about him solely because of that. And, most importantly, never talks to the other main characters in a way that felt necessary aside from his Moby Dick quest to find the Shadows.

What do we know about Keffer?

Keffer has a girl back home that he receives messages back home from, he goes on a quest to prove the Shadows are real, and......that's it. Does Keffer's quest affect him in any other way? No. Does it develop him as a character? No. Does it help define who he is? I guess. But that's all he is, a walking blank slate that the audience never really gets to know anything about. Mostly this is because he has no one else aside from guest characters to interact with, and he suffers for it.

Lou Walsh was originally one of Garibaldi's recurring faces. Someone the audience could see Garibaldi bounce off ideas of before Zack Allen arrived. We don't get that with Keffer, because he's the only pilot character, and doesn't really bounce dialogue off of Sheridan or Ivanova when in space.

Seriously, Lt. David Corwin was a character I cared more about and he was originally named Tech #2 in season 1. And we get a lot of mileage out of him because of his interactions with the other characters. Corwin is a kind of comedic foil to Ivanova, snarking whenever she makes a quip, nervous around authority and attention, good at his job, and very awkward around women.

Hell, I'd enjoy having the two janitor characters from season 5 as recurring greek chorus characters more than I would Keffer.

It's shocking how many people dislike this guy. Does everyone need to have a super deep backstory? Hell, he seems more like any secondary TNG or DS9 character to me. Like Muniz. What do we REALLY know about him? Nothing. He just helped the Chief recover from his time in prison, and then, he dies. That's it. I dunno, I still don't see the problem.

JMS wanted hyperspace to be like traversing the ocean in the old Age of Sail, almost like for the Vikings. It's violent, turbulent, and dangerous, but it gets you from point A to point B quick. The problem is, like the Vikings, without landmarks or markers to show you where you are, you're lost, doomed to wander until you find another jumpgate to jump out of or die of starvation.

Makes sense. That's actually also kind of what I said.

I actually made it due to this episode with friends, even followed the recipe from the Lurker's page. It's good if you like to fondue, but it's terrible on the hips. Hence why Garibaldi should only have it once a year.

Then definitely not for me.

[FaxModem1]

It's shocking how many people dislike this guy. Does everyone need to have a super deep backstory? Hell, he seems more like any secondary TNG or DS9 character to me. Like Muniz. What do we REALLY know about him? Nothing. He just helped the Chief recover from his time in prison, and then, he dies. That's it. I dunno, I still don't see the problem.

The key point is that Keffer doesn't naturally fit in with anyone else. Munoz from DS9 is an engineer, so of course it's natural that he and O'Brien get along. Lou Welsh is in Security, so of course he would have conversations with Garibaldi all the time. Corwin is in CnC, so of course he will have conversations and deliver exposition to Sheridan, Ivanova, or Sinclair.

The Earth command staff characters have reasons to talk to each other, for whatever reason.

Keffer has no one to talk to. He's a new character, made from whole cloth, who only seems to talk to guest characters. If we saw him handing in reports to Ivanova, or talking to Garibaldi about arresting one of his pilots for starting a fight, or whatever, or being healed after a space battle by Dr. Franklin, sure. But we don't get that. Keffer is in his own little world, doing nothing, and it only pays off in the season finale.

But let's run with that. Keep Keffer in only pilot related things. Do we get to see him grow, like Talia does in telepath related stories? No. Do we see how his actions affect the status quo, like we do with the command staff or the ambassadors? Not until his death. Keffer had to die to matter to the story, or as a character. That's why people have a problem with him.

Take Confessions and Lamentations. Keffer could have a scene, talking to Ivanova, about seeing all those Markab bodies on the ship he recovers and brings back to B5, and how it will haunt him for the rest of his days. We don't get that. He figures out that it's full of dead people, but that could have been done by Ivanova, Garibaldi, Lou Walsh, Corwin, or by a guest actor. There's very little narrative meat for us to get attached to. So at best we get apathy about him. He's just there, doing a few minutes, meh.

And without him, we could have a line saying that Zeta squadron found the ship full of dead bodies in one line, and spend more time on characters or stories we know are going somewhere.

[MixedDrops]

I don't think Chuck hates Keffer, he just finds him insanely boring, and I have to agree with that. IIRC JMS even straight up said he wrote the guy to be boring precisely because he knew he was killing him off at the end of the season. Well, maybe in not those words, but pretty close to that. I know he did say later he wished he fleshed out Keffer a bit more before offing him as well.

When you think about it, the guy who gets the shortest stick there is the guy who played him.

[Yukaphile]

Well, I don't mind him. I've known plenty boring people IRL.

[Nealithi]

Well, I don't mind him. I've known plenty boring people IRL.

Except the reason he is boring is no effort is put on him. He was foisted onto the show and main credits with nothing to him but 'pilot'. The way JMS brings characters we will see one episode then never again, tells me Keffer wasn't forgotten. He was deliberately starved for writing attention out of protest. And that is a shame, and his screen time really does not elevate an episode. Point of fact replace him with a different pilot each time and you would have the same effect, maybe better. As it would show all the pilots getting a little jittery about the shadows. Keffer as a character probably would have become a B5 Wedge Antilles if he stayed a secondary character. Showing up as reinforcements when one of the main cast is momentarily in over their head(s). That guy seen in the background at the bar or galley they nod to as they go to their own table. Pity.

[Nealithi]

It's shocking how many people dislike this guy. Does everyone need to have a super deep backstory? Hell, he seems more like any secondary TNG or DS9 character to me. Like Muniz. What do we REALLY know about him? Nothing. He just helped the Chief recover from his time in prison, and then, he dies. That's it. I dunno, I still don't see the problem.

The key point is that Keffer doesn't naturally fit in with anyone else. Munoz from DS9 is an engineer, so of course it's natural that he and O'Brien get along. Lou Welsh is in Security, so of course he would have conversations with Garibaldi all the time. Corwin is in CnC, so of course he will have conversations and deliver exposition to Sheridan, Ivanova, or Sinclair.

The Earth command staff characters have reasons to talk to each other, for whatever reason.

Keffer has no one to talk to. He's a new character, made from whole cloth, who only seems to talk to guest characters. If we saw him handing in reports to Ivanova, or talking to Garibaldi about arresting one of his pilots for starting a fight, or whatever, or being healed after a space battle by Dr. Franklin, sure. But we don't get that. Keffer is in his own little world, doing nothing, and it only pays off in the season finale.

But let's run with that. Keep Keffer in only pilot related things. Do we get to see him grow, like Talia does in telepath related stories? No. Do we see how his actions affect the status quo, like we do with the command staff or the ambassadors? Not until his death. Keffer had to die to matter to the story, or as a character. That's why people have a problem with him.

Take Confessions and Lamentations. Keffer could have a scene, talking to Ivanova, about seeing all those Markab bodies on the ship he recovers and brings back to B5, and how it will haunt him for the rest of his days. We don't get that. He figures out that it's full of dead people, but that could have been done by Ivanova, Garibaldi, Lou Walsh, Corwin, or by a guest actor. There's very little narrative meat for us to get attached to. So at best we get apathy about him. He's just there, doing a few minutes, meh.

And without him, we could have a line saying that Zeta squadron found the ship full of dead bodies in one line, and spend more time on characters or stories we know are going somewhere.

Not really a comment on your response. But a question. Where does your avatar image come from? He reminds me of the Silver Shroud from Fallout 4. Thanks.

[Wargriffin]

At this point it quite well known JMS is rather 'Pissy' when he is forced to deal with things he doesn't like... or is heavily criticized for his shit that doesn't work

-See Superman: Grounded-


also JMS is not one to throw stones about weight being a rather portly fellow himself

[bguy]

At this point it quite well known JMS is rather 'Pissy' when he is forced to deal with things he doesn't like... or is heavily criticized for his shit that doesn't work

-See Superman: Grounded-

I never really understood why JMS was so hostile to the idea of the Keffer character anyway because objectively there really should have been a CAG type character on the command staff. Sheridan and Ivanova both have far too much on their plate to be off playing Wing Commander, and the idea that Garibaldi (the Security Chief) even knows how to fly a Starfury let alone is qualified to lead a whole squadron in combat always seemed rather goofy, so if JMS is going to have starfighters in his universe than it makes sense there would be an actual specialist in charge of them.