What's up with this hypocrisy?

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Makeshift Python
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by Makeshift Python »

MixedDrops wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:31 pm The only difference is nowadays people will find reasons to get angry about these things (more often anyway), and when they can't find quotes they can mine, they'll make them up, and people like you will take their complaints at face value rather than dismissing them as being jackasses like they deserve.
And then there are those who intentionally seek out for things they perceive as problems and blow it out of proportion because that's how much they dislike the show. Yukaphile already posted awhile back that he doesn't want DISCO to improve in quality because that's how badly he wants it to fail.

On another forum there was a user who blasted DIS for featuring a holographic simulator, claiming it was going against canon because such simulators didn't exist until the 24th century. But then that was countered by someone else bringing up the Rec Room featured in TAS where Bones, Sulu, and Uhura program simulations of multiple environments, showing that holographic simulators did exist (and in fact was a concept that Gene wanted to introduce on the Enterprise in Season 3 of TOS, but budget restrictions prevented that). The user then tried countering that with the possibility that it wasn't a holographic simulation but that the three characters may have been hallucinating because of laughing gas. He even went as far as to edit a Memory Alpha page and use that to prove his point. Of course, everyone pointed out what he did and he tried denying it by saying "oh, I was just making a statement of how MA can be unreliable by editing it myself and seeing how you would all fall for it" which nobody did anyway.

Some fans can be bizarre.
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BridgeConsoleMasher
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by BridgeConsoleMasher »

The topic of this very thread is inherent hypocrisy in itself especially considering how adverse Yuka gets about nominal aspects of this show.

And then its aim... "people unfairly bashed DS9, so why aren't they doing it to this show to help ground it??"
..What mirror universe?
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by Antiboyscout »

MixedDrops wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:39 am If you don't believe hate speech exists or is a problem, then you shouldn't have a problem with some writers jerking themselves off about diversity being nice either, yet apparently you do.
It becomes a problem when the writers are so busy jerking themselves off that they don't even bother writing a good story of good characters and just expect the diversity the carry the show by itself.

Worse is when the show fails or gets pushback and they blame it all on racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted... ect. man-babies. (a woman coundn't possibly dislike the show, it has a female lead)
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by Antiboyscout »

At its basis, DS9 tests the limits of the Roddenberry ideal and in doing so reaffirms it.

STD doesn't seem to follow any sort of ideal at all.
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Karha of Honor
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by Karha of Honor »

MixedDrops wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:39 am If you don't believe hate speech exists or is a problem, then you shouldn't have a problem with some writers jerking themselves off about diversity being nice either, yet apparently you do.

By the way, let's take a sample of the supposed ridiculous shit the Discovery staff said in interviews, shall we?
Bryan Fuller wrote:I couldn't stop thinking about how many black people were inspired by seeing Nichelle Nichols on the bridge of a ship. I couldn't stop thinking about how many Asian people were inspired by seeing George Takei and feeling that gave them hope for their place in the future. I wanted to be part of that representation for a new era.
Bryan Fuller wrote:It was interesting to send [Mae Jemison] outlines and start talking about the character and get her perspective on what it’s like for a woman in the sciences now when we still have a lot of issues with women and race, and how that’s going to be 250 years in the future when the world gets its shit together and equality is a thing that’s more accepted.
“Absolutely we’re having a gay character,” Fuller said. He noted that as a gay man working on Voyager, he had a file full of hate mail when there was a rumor a character on his show was going to be gay. So he was determined if he ever did his own Star Trek show, he would have a gay character. “We’ve come a long way since then. I feel like actually gay rights have come a lot further in that time than race issues and women’s issues.”
Wow, what a bunch of snotty self-absorbed SJW assholes, clearly they should never answer questions about diversity so they won't have to offend people who don't like diversity.
How does A lead to B in the first sentence?

You should quote me.
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MixedDrops
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by MixedDrops »

Antiboyscout wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:22 pm It becomes a problem when the writers are so busy jerking themselves off that they don't even bother writing a good story of good characters and just expect the diversity the carry the show by itself.
Again, people keep asserting that's what's going on with DIS, but I've yet to see dick all that proves this is what's going on, as least as compared to other Trek shows. Explain how any of the quotes I posted (or feel free to provide your own) that are any more extreme or self-congratulatory than the things Roddenberry says here, for instance.

Remember that "I think the show sucks" is different from "I think the show sucks because they're too busy masturbating over their wokeness". The former is an opinion anyone is free to hold, the latter adds an assumption you need evidence for.
Slash Gallagher wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:31 pm How does A lead to B in the first sentence?

You should quote me.
Sure, you said this:
i do not recognize hate speech as a legit moral or legal concept.

What you define as hate speech is not a problem in the United States.
So let's break that down.

First, let's forget the legal part of your first sentence, because we're obviously not in a court of law here, we're talking about a TV show. So let's go with the other part, where you don't recognize it as a legit moral concept. Since you refrained from providing a definition, let's go with the commonly accepted one:
abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
In other words, you think abusive or threatening speech based on race, religion, or sexual orientation isn't a legitimate moral problem. You also added that you don't think it's a problem in the United States (despite the fact the topic isn't about the US, it was about a specific TV show).

If you don't think abusive or threatening speech on those grounds is a problem, then there's no reason for you to think writers jerking themselves off about progressiveness should be a problem.

That's actually me being generous by assuming you're simply for all speech being free (and should apparently go uncommented on) to the point of being amoral, rather than just assuming you're actually just malicious because you're indifferent to hate speech but for some reason do not take that same indifference towards some people circlejerking themselves about diversity. Unless you want to admit that that's your stance I guess. You're free to do that.
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by Antiboyscout »

MixedDrops wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:10 pm
Antiboyscout wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:22 pm It becomes a problem when the writers are so busy jerking themselves off that they don't even bother writing a good story of good characters and just expect the diversity the carry the show by itself.
Again, people keep asserting that's what's going on with DIS, but I've yet to see dick all that proves this is what's going on, as least as compared to other Trek shows. Explain how any of the quotes I posted (or feel free to provide your own) that are any more extreme or self-congratulatory than the things Roddenberry says here, for instance.

Remember that "I think the show sucks" is different from "I think the show sucks because they're too busy masturbating over their wokeness". The former is an opinion anyone is free to hold, the latter adds an assumption you need evidence for.
You're right. It's much more likely that the writers are being jerked off by a bunch of progressive ideologues that have convinced them that all they have to do to tap into an untapped marked that definitely exists is to make diverse characters.

Writing diverse characters is easy. Writing good or interesting characters is hard. Guess what they chose.
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by MixedDrops »

What reason do you have to think that DIS staff wrote characters you find shitty on purpose because they think they only need to satisfy ideologues, rather than them writing something, and then you not liking it?

Also isn't one of the most common assertions you hear is that these ideologues can't sustain financial stability for franchises on their own? Why isn't DIS canceled yet if that's the case?
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Makeshift Python
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by Makeshift Python »

Trek being progressive is kind of the default. At least it was supposed to be aside from Rick Berman’s homophobia.
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Re: What's up with this hypocrisy?

Post by Yukaphile »

Frankly, I'm amazed they ever got what little LGBT representation they did in the 1990s with him opposing it. My Peruvian friend loves Dax. And I love her too.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
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