Babylon 5: Geometry of Shadows

[Yukaphile]

Luke's Jedi Order in Legends emphasized redemption above punishment, which you wonder why the Jedi of the old order never did. Case in point, Kyp Durron. Logically he should have been tried as a war criminal. But he wasn't. He was given a second chance, and it worked out well.

[Jonathan101]

Kyp was more of a brainwashed pawn of Exar Kun (who was a stereotypical irredeemably evil fallen Jedi) and barely had any training; the old Order certainly had Jedi who were under mind control or who starting slipping but were redeemed and welcomed back (Aayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, even Revan) but also it's fair share of outright fallen Jedi (Kun, Dooku etc) which, let's be clear, Luke also had to deal with (Kueller, Brakiss).

Given the gravity of his actions the old Order probably would have either thrown Kyp in jail or dealt with him in some other way; I don't think they would have killed him for no reason if he was willing to go peacefully, and I don't think Luke or anyone else was beyond killing him if they thought that's what it would have taken to stop him.

I don't think Lukes' order was more redemption-leaning than the old one; I think it's just that Luke himself was. There were plenty of Jedi in the NJO who thought Kyp should have been kicked out or even killed and certainly that he got off lightly; for the same reason, I think if Kyp was in the old Order and in the same situation (manipulated by Exar Kun), whether or not anyone tried to redeem him really would have depended more on what particular Jedi he was dealing with.

[Wargriffin]

... I'm pretty sure the Jedi have a long history of choosing to redeem rather then punish

Ulric
Revan
Atton
Kira


Hell Yoda even went to an obvious death trap... just for the shot at redeeming Dooku

Honestly the problem with New Jedi order redemption arcs was the habit to fully exonerate the person

while older arcs are either Redeem but you need to atone for it 'Revan' or Redeemed only personally, at large your still held with the same contempt as before 'Ulric and Vader'


the other problem is NJO characters tend to just fall to the background after their big arc

[Yukaphile]

@Jonathan101 I am aware of that. Corran Horn, for example. But this is getting off topic. My original point was the Vorlon vs. Shadow conflict reflect that of the Jedi and Sith, at least to a superficial degree. Order vs. chaos. Light vs. dark - somewhat.

[MixedDrops]

So not gonna continue to conversation here, but I just saw the review myself. I gotta agree that the concept behind the Drazi seemed really silly to me. It just seems like one of those "we gotta make the aliens seem alien" things without thinking about whether or not it makes sense. Reminds me a bit of some of the season 1 episodes of B5 when they were still trying to find their footing.

I've never read the outside novels though, so being told that their society was directed to become such via The Shadows is actually a really cool explanation. Makes sense within the universe of B5, but that doesn't really help the episode on its own.

What does help is the whole Technomage plot. Really great to see Londo hitting the limit of his stubbornness, and I still think that final "Your Victims" speech is the best piece of dialogue in the entirety of B5. Just chilling. Of course Ansara's delivery helped seal the deal, but even if I imagined that line being delivered through less capable actors it would've still been great.

[Beastro]

I don't think they were inspired by B5, because the Jedi/Sith conflict was first really talked about in the "Tales of the Jedi" comics which came out in 1993, and other than a pilot the actual Babylon 5 TV series wouldn't come out until 1994, the Vorlon / Shadow conflict later still. The Star Wars stuff came out first, and much of Sith philosophy can be comfortably traced back to the movies anyway.

From what I know of B5, JMS deliberately sought to create a series not based around two sides being good vs evil but to reflect the battle of order and chaos in mankind's older, pagan outlook, especially the ancient Mesopotamian variety, hence the use of the name Babylon.

Despite that said, my impression even as a teen, was that he didn't fully succeed given that the Army of Light is built up and fostered by the Vorlon's. Yes, they are jerks only demanding obedience, but even with the degree Kosh goes to in that end, he is nonetheless the fulcrum upon which the good guys successes hinge upon to stop the repeated wars (I'd argue they simply ended the Vorlon/Shadow stage of it moving it into the Younger Races fighting over the same thing with only the Drahk/Chaos recognizing the repeating of the cycle).

It doesn't help that he's revered by the other Vorlon's on top of that lending an impression that he is in outlook toward the Younger Races what all Vorlon's should have been or originally were giving the Shadow War a feel of Order gone awry while Chaos is never presented as anything good given the limited and hostile impression the Shadows present.

So not gonna continue to conversation here, but I just saw the review myself. I gotta agree that the concept behind the Drazi seemed really silly to me. It just seems like one of those "we gotta make the aliens seem alien" things without thinking about whether or not it makes sense. Reminds me a bit of some of the season 1 episodes of B5 when they were still trying to find their footing.

I'd say they're a tame version of the same thematic point made behind a race like Star Control's Thraddesh. The problem is, we don't see much of the rest of Drazi culture, so it's all left very superficial lending it that feeling you describe.

[CharlesPhipps]

Notable fact in the EU:

The Jedi did commit genocide on all the Sith worlds.

They also attempted to do the same on the D-low with the Returned Revan.

It's part of why Satele Shan left.

[TheStarWarsTrek]

Speaking of Star Wars, remember that scene in the Death Star trench where that one pilot said "Stay on topic . . . stay on topic . . . "

[Yukaphile]

Hahahahaha!

[RobbyB1982]

I'm surprised that Chuck, and no one in the thread, have yet mentioned that Claudia ACTUALLY broke her foot during the filming of this episode. Its why she was in a cast the next few episodes, not just good continuity.

JMS said at the time
"There were *substantial* differences made between the first draft and the final, based on the fact that a lot of the physical stuff I'd written for Claudia -- getting herself out of the problem she was in with the Drazi -- had to be dumped because the actress had a broken foot. So that aspect has to be remembered. We pushed her to the limits, and I didn't want to push further."

So it seems like that the first version DID have her solving the problems on her own.