Is Last Jedi Luke's actions consistent with Luke's character from the original movies?

[TheOneTrueJack]

Okay, let's run through it again.

He starts out... whiny brat. He makes his entrance in Return of the Jedi as a more self-assured man, and when he confronts his father again for the first time after Bepsin, it's with calm grace and dignity. You really have a sense he has the inner peace and serenity that comes with being a Jedi - almost. Yes, he flipped his shit on Vader, but that's a long way from having a knee-jerk reaction to murdering an unarmed relative in their sleep - because as I've said, knee-jerk reactions are one thing, grabbing the weapon speaks to intent, and as as I've beaten this point in over and over, Vader could fight back! And narratively speaking, rejecting the darkness and sparing his father, choosing to trust in him rather than kill him to save Leia and his friends, which was Anakin's own undoing, was the final test. You really can see the interpretation that he'd be a mature man after that point, and would just continue deepening his understanding of the Force and its lore. That he made all the right choices that Anakin failed to make, swerved left where he swerved right. And that things would turn out better because of it. That's who I see. Not some impulsive, whiny shit like Luke's haters do.

To me, that's what makes Luke's arc in TLJ so powerful, yet sad. That he did learn his lesson from RoTJ, but it didn't matter.

In RoTJ he lashes out in anger, trying to kill both the Emperor and his father. After conquering his darkness, he vows to be a better man.

Flash forward to that night in Ben's hut. Once again Luke feels that instinct, but his time he fights it. He recognizes that what he is doing is wrong and feeling shame, goes to put his weapon away. Showing that he is truly no longer the man he was when he tried to kill his father.

But it didn't matter. Ben was already awake, and it was already over. Everything Luke loved was destroyed, because of a moment of pure instinct, that he already overcome. Because of a mistake, he didn't even commit.

No wonder Luke lost is faith in the Jedi afterwards. He had earned all the right lessons, proven himself worthy, but in the end it didn't even matter.

It plays into one of the larger themes in TLJ. That sometimes you can make all the right choices, learn all the right lessons, but you'll still fail. And that's something you just have to accept and deal with. Which Luke finally does in the end, finding peace with what happened.

Don't get me wrong, this is definitely the darkest, heaviest story you could have told with Luke Skywalker, and I sympathize with people who would have preferred a happier journey for Luke. To not have his life turn out like this. But for me it does fundamentally ring true to who Luke is, and it really resonated with me.

[AuRon]

Okay, I'll just give a few thoughts on this. I personally don't think it's consistent with what we were shown in previous movies. Luke had his Hero's Journey, and this movie seemed to crap all over that. You could say that since so many years had passed its possible Luke could become like that. Well, that's true of anything. You could come up with a million scenarios for why after a few decades a character might be totally different. That doesn't make it good writing though.

Luke's portrayal, and a lot of other things in this movie, just felt very cynical to me. Like the message of the movie is "there are no real heroes, nothing really matters". I know that these days cynicism and knocking things off of their pedestals is very fashionable. Which is understandable in real life, to some extant. But that isn't what I want from Star Wars. I don't need, or even want,Luke to be some perfect demigod who does no wrong. I just want him to be a good man who wants to do the right thing, even if he doesn't always succeed. Is that so much to ask?

I feel like the original Thrawn trilogy was close to what I want. In those books Luke was brave, heroic, and generally well meaning. But he was also gullible in some ways, and often shown to be unsure of himself, and needed to be rescued numerous times. He wasn't perfect, but he was still admirable. I'm not really interested in the Legends books in general though, for various reasons.

The thing is, if they absolutely HAD to turn Luke from that, then there were more interesting ways to do it. If they had somehow made him an evil sith, then at least we could have gotten some neat stuff from that. Sure, it still would have been a left turn from the earlier movies, but it could have been entertaining. The Luke we saw in TLJ not only wasn't a hero, but he wasn't even entertaining. He was kind of dull, and I kept waiting for him to get up and do something. By the time he finally did, it felt like too little too late. It felt like they threw away his Hero's Journey for nothing. Just to be "subversive" and edgy.

In response to the above post, the fact that his journey in the original movie didn't matter is not at all okay with me. Made worse by the fact that the new movies basically make it so that almost nothing in the original trilogy matters anymore. All the struggles, the hardships,the character development, the battles and deaths. All meaningless. Maybe some people like that, but I don't. I wouldn't be able to enjoy the old movies if I accept the new ones as part of the canon. Because then when I watch the old movies I'll just think "well none of this really matters in the long run, it'll all be undone years later." I don't want to think it was all for nothing. Not Luke's journey, and not the original story in general.

People talk about TLJ having important things to say about failure. How you can try your best and still fail. That can make for an interesting story, but again, its not the story I want from Star Wars, or at least not from a main numbered movie featuring Luke Skywalker. Like I said, this just felt needlessly cynical and mean spirited, and I didn't like it. I didn't even get into the other problems, like the bad pacing and intrusive, unfunny comedy. Anyway... I just wanted to say some of these things. Everyone is entitled to different viewpoints though.

[Yukaphile]

@AuRon I love you, no homo. And your username... is that a nod to "The Never-Ending Story?!"

[MixedDrops]

I don't understand how you can accuse TLJ of being cynical, of all things. I especially don't understand why you would think the message was "nothing matters". Luke is brought to a very low point, but at the end of the movie the entire point is that he actually became the mythical hero that the galaxy always imagined him as (which is why the kids at the end are re-enacting the scene of Luke facing down The First Order, not Rey or whoever else doing whatever). I think the message was more about how people aren't as impressive as the Legends tell you they are, but they can still embody them when they're at their best and can inspire people to do great things.

And while we're at it, some people seem to take away the message of "destroy the past" from the movie even though it's almost the exact opposite...which is especially mind-boggling when that's the PoV of the villain, straight from his mouth. They specifically point out that Rey saved the ancient Jedi Texts, too.

Again, I don't like the movie, I just like some of the ideas. It didn't do them very well but I'll always defend the movie (and other works) if people are going to accuse it of doing things that aren't in the text...especially if someone's going to claim the text says the exact opposite of what it actually says.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Yeah really. I didn't walk away from the movie feeling like it was Not Star Wars. It's just a completely different focus on protagonists, and it's totally possible this is what happened with Luke.

[Yukaphile]

Because there's no buildup, as others have pointed out. Hell, even the prequels were one massive setup to the original trilogy. They failed in execution, but at least they were building up to that. But there is none of that with Last Jedi. They give us a bitter old hermit Luke, and we're expected to buy it, and people bend over backwards to justify it with him flipping on Vader. PLEASE.

[AuRon]

I don't understand how you can accuse TLJ of being cynical, of all things. I especially don't understand why you would think the message was "nothing matters". Luke is brought to a very low point, but at the end of the movie the entire point is that he actually became the mythical hero that the galaxy always imagined him as (which is why the kids at the end are re-enacting the scene of Luke facing down The First Order, not Rey or whoever else doing whatever). I think the message was more about how people aren't as impressive as the Legends tell you they are, but they can still embody them when they're at their best and can inspire people to do great things.

Well, I disagree with a lot of what you wrote. First of all, there is a difference between someone not being as impressive as legends make him out to be, and being a cowardly self centered asshole who abandons his friends and family so he can go live on an island alone while many people are dying. I don't believe that Luke Skywalker would do that, and Mark Hammil himself doesn't think so either based on what he said before. You can try to justify it, but to me it rings false for the character.

Secondly, this is absolutely a cynical movie. I already gave one reason why. There's also the war profiteering stuff, and Luke seemingly not caring about Han being dead. Johnson also originally planned to have Lando in the DJ role: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat- ... ns-1125952

Which means he probably wanted Lando to betray the heroes, thus undoing his character development/redemption as well.

But I think using some quotes might help to illustrate things better. First, from Return of the Jedi:

Luke: Obi-Wan. Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Luke: [incredulously] A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: [resigned] Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

See this? Empire and Return were already using these ideas of failure, and heroes not being what you expected, and going to dark places. Luke idolized his father, based his identity around him. Only to realize his father is an arch villain. Obi Wan talks about how he thought he could be a great mentor to Anakin, only to fail and lose him to the dark side. The Last Jedi isn't doing anything new with its ideas, its just taking old ideas from the original movies and putting a more cynical spin on them. I feel that a large part of Luke's story arc in the original movies is that he starts out with these naive ideas about being a hero (A New Hope), only to get a harsh lesson in reality (Empire). Luke has to reassess things, and grapple with things internally. He discovers that Yoda and Obi Wan lied to him, and his father is a monster. He discovers the Jedi aren't as great and wise as he thought. Everyone tells him that Vader can't be saved. But he proves them wrong. He saves Vader, makes it out alive, and can now become the actual great and wise leader that the Jedi were always meant to be. He can actually embody that. It doesn't make him perfect, or a superhero, it just means that he managed to succeed where they failed. He was able to see things that they weren't. That's why he's a hero.

The Last Jedi tosses all of that into the garbage for the sake of being "subversive". Although, that is also a problem with The Force Awakens to some extant, since these movies stupidly decided to bring back the empire under a different name, and then wipe out both the new republic and most of the resistance, making everything that happened in the original movies feel like a big waste of time. Which is why I said "nothing matters".

[Yukaphile]

You're wasting your time, man. They focus only on the most superficial of Luke's character traits - like flipping his shit against Vader - to somehow shoehorn that into his portrayal in Last Jedi and think it's totally consistent with a guy who plotted to murder his nephew in his sleep, and then just ran and hid while the galaxy was in danger. At least in the prequels, the Sith had seized total control of the galaxy's institutions and swayed public opinion to such an extent that gathering in large groups was dangerous for the Jedi. The sequels have none of that. But people still think it fits. You're wasting your breath.

[MixedDrops]

Alright there's a lot to unpack there AuRon, so I apologize if I miss responding to anything.

You not buying Luke Skywalker in TLJ I get. My primary issue wasn't that you find The Last Jedi's characters unbelievable or unlikable, but that you are accusing the movie as a whole of being cynical. Let me try to go through the reasons you stated:

1. Luke's fall in TLJ means heroes don't exist and nothing matters

Like I said, I think this is flatly incorrect and actually the opposite of the textual message of the film. By the end of the film, Luke has embodied the hero that everyone needed him to be and has inspired hope in the galaxy once again by doing something that seemed impossible (earlier in the film he mocks the idea of him facing The First Order by himself with just a Lightsaber in hand, but at the end of the film that's basically what he does).

I think the message was more "heroes will disappoint you when you meet the real person, but the legends they create from their greatest moments can still inspire". To me, that's actually a really great idea. Now, execution-wise, I have lots and lots of gripes with TLJ there, I just can't see that as a "cynical" message though.

2. Luke not caring that Han is dead.

I don't know if I'd really call that something that makes the film cynical, just something that should've been shown and I agree if you say that. BTW a scene for it actually was shot, but it's not in the final film, so I won't give them credit for that. However I bring this up because of the next point.

3. Lando originally planned in the DJ role

I don't give them credit for the "Luke mourns Han" scene being on the cutting room floor, so I don't really think it's fair to dock points for something that was brainstormed and was never even filmed.

4. War Profiteering

This I can agree is a little more cynical in that it makes the heroes less "pure" by showing that their fighting profits the same people as TFO's fighting does, but I don't see how this in any way can convince someone that the heroes are in any way just as bad as the villains. It can show that the heroes also contribute to suffering by perpetuating this system, but I don't think the movie's message is "resistance causes suffering, so don't resist", because that would be a cynical message.

Honestly though this was one of those things in the movie I didn't like either, but more because it's an element that seems like it's just mentioned and not really expanded upon.

5. Quote from RotJ

Okay, so the exchange you posted showed that the hero recognized that the people he idolizes aren't as great as he thinks they are, defies them where he thinks they are wrong, learns from those mistakes, and ultimately tries to build something even better by proving them wrong. Who checks almost all of these things?

The Hero of TLJ- that is, Rey. She goes to Luke, hoping to find the great hero she had heard of all her life who saved the galaxy. She is let down by what she finds, because Luke has lost hope. Luke advises Rey not to try to save Ben Solo, but like Luke did so many years ago, Rey defies him and flies to convince Kylo Ren. She fails, and in the moment when it seems that all is lost, Luke reappears, faces against The First Order all by himself, saving the Resistance and becoming the hero Rey and the rest of the Galaxy always thought he was.

So there's obviously some major differences here, but in this story as well the heroes still rise up and become the best versions of themselves they could. I don't really consider that a cynical story. The key part that would be is the major difference- that Rey fails to redeem Kylo Ren the way Luke could for Vader. It of course remains to be seen if Rey has really given up on trying to help Kylo Ren anymore, but I will give you that as far as this movie is concerned, it is cynical in its assessment of Kylo Ren- he can't be redeemed or saved, not by Luke, or by Rey. But honestly to me this was one of the few twists I feel actually work- not everyone's going to be able to just cast aside evil with a few words from the protagonist (you are only allowed to repent on your Death Bed!).

6. Nothing that happened in the original movies mattered because we're back to square one of rebels vs empire

I actually am not going to contend too much here because I more or less agree, though this is more of a problem from TFA. My problem is less that it happened, and more that it happened almost completely off-screen (supposedly the New Republic became too complacent and ignored the threat of The First Order and dismissed Leia as a kook while she was a senator in said New Republic warning them).

I would agree this was a cynical decision as a result of wanting to play it safe with the new movies, but I don't see how that makes The Last Jedi a cynical film in terms of actual text. If you're going to argue metatextually I don't think I have an issue there (though it's not as if money was not a factor even when Lucas was at the head).

[Yukaphile]

At least in Legends, the conflicts following the Empire's defeat were fresh, not a rehash.