VOY: Mortal Coil Review

[CmdrKing]

I severely disagree with Kira's "you're guilty simply being there" assertion. I see so many people abusing that line of thinking today and it gets in the way of comforting and addressing the pain of real victims. I hate it. He's guilty because he murdered unarmed people who couldn't fight back. That's why.

Part of Bajor's story in DS9 is not just recovering in terms of materiel and social stability, but in coping with who they had to become to regain their independence. I'm not as familiar with the show as I'd like, but Kira's stories frequently visit the idea, and it's something that comes up in almost any real-life struggle against oppression: letting hatred for you enemy drive you will ultimately put the worst people in charge. Because if you organize and mobilize on force of hatred and spite alone, your leaders become those who best embody that hatred and pledge to wreak the most vengeance upon the enemy.
Fundamentally Bajor had to rebuild its soul and ability to love again, and a lot of Kira's plots are about reconciling that need with the equal need to let whatever fuel got her through the day drive her during the occupation itself.
And in a lot of ways, that's why it's a show that's frequently about the Bajoran Gods, the people of Bajor need faith not just to unite them against their oppressors, but to reminds them of how to live and thrive without the need for an external enemy to hate. And in a lot of ways that's why Kai Winn is portrayed in the way she usually is, she wields religion as a means of power, and uses its role in uniting Bajor against Cardassia to legitimize herself. And her learning that lesson in the end, where the devils of her people feed on the hate of their biggest enemy in an attempt to literally burn the entire planet, well, sometimes metaphors are just a bit on the nose.

[Yukaphile]

Kira shouldn't be given a free pass from criticism because "war drives you to the hate the enemy." Tbh, I think she's wrong to target civilians. I HATE doing that in war. Yes, her views that "if you don't, the Cardassians will just put civilians on every station and base and outpost you have" are true, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. And as this guy proved, those weren't exactly quick deaths in some cases. They lived with permanent, life-scarring injury, simply for being there. What could this Cardassian man have been in another life? Hell, he might have been like Marritza prior to being bombed - disagreed with the occupation! But you do something like that to someone, they're gonna want to hurt you back. I do think murdering unarmed people was wrong, but in his own twisted way, he was trying to spare as many people as possible. He even admitted as much. Kira came off as more hateful in that episode than he did, tbh. And I speak as someone who generally likes her, so... way to go, Fuller.

[clearspira]

Don't forget the obvious Nazi symbolism that went into making the Cardassians. Yes, I see the Soviets and us there, but the morally simplistic black-and-white Trek writers probably didn't. And terrorism against Nazis can't be bad, can it? It's the same thinking that goes into saying they were collectively guilty, right down to the last man, woman, and child, which is so utterly detached from compassionate humanity and common sense that I reject such extremes.

Oh God, it hit me. The Irish Unification of 2024? OMG... written around the 1990s? Was... was that a mention to IRA?

In the context it was being used, it seemed to me that Trek was saying that terrorism directly led to reunification yes. In the real world it could be Brexit and the backstop but that is another discussion

[Yukaphile]

Oh dear God... why were we so sympathetic? I mean, no wonder people are complaining about it more in a post-9/11 world...

[Yukaphile]

Seriously, why is terrorism only seen as cool and necessary when white people are doing it?

[CmdrKing]

Kira shouldn't be given a free pass from criticism because "war drives you to the hate the enemy." Tbh, I think she's wrong to target civilians. I HATE doing that in war. Yes, her views that "if you don't, the Cardassians will just put civilians on every station and base and outpost you have" are true, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. And as this guy proved, those weren't exactly quick deaths in some cases. They lived with permanent, life-scarring injury, simply for being there. What could this Cardassian man have been in another life? Hell, he might have been like Marritza prior to being bombed - disagreed with the occupation! But you do something like that to someone, they're gonna want to hurt you back. I do think murdering unarmed people was wrong, but in his own twisted way, he was trying to spare as many people as possible. He even admitted as much. Kira came off as more hateful in that episode than he did, tbh. And I speak as someone who generally likes her, so... way to go, Fuller.

It's less about whether her (or anyone in the resistance really) actions during the occupation are defensible or not so much as the after. Regardless of whether any Cardassian can or should be forgiven for the occupation, ultimately Bajorans have to have some other driving force behind them besides prosecuting their crimes as they rebuild. And dwelling on settling those debts is poison. While making their crimes clear and seeking justice where possible is not without merit, their focus has to be on rebuilding, building alliances, and finding new goals and means to heal as a culture.

Put another way, any time you're recovering from oppression, your first concern has to be compassion for those harmed, not vengeance against those who oppressed.

[Yukaphile]

This actually reminds me of that episode "A Man Alone." I know Ibudan was manipulating Odo, but perhaps a better alternative could have been that he legitimately was persecuted for a crime under the Cardassians that the Bajorans don't recognize anymore. Maybe he raped a seven-year-old girl in revenge in front of the father of a prominent Cardassian official, an act which few people could ever defend, because they'd done something like burned his village to the ground. And the whole rest of the episode could then go on to be a massive quagmire of complex questions. Hell, I think it'd be interesting if Sisko was on Odo's side rather than Kira's. That would have been fascinating. Alas, if only.

[G-Man]

It's less about whether her (or anyone in the resistance really) actions during the occupation are defensible or not so much as the after. Regardless of whether any Cardassian can or should be forgiven for the occupation, ultimately Bajorans have to have some other driving force behind them besides prosecuting their crimes as they rebuild. And dwelling on settling those debts is poison. While making their crimes clear and seeking justice where possible is not without merit, their focus has to be on rebuilding, building alliances, and finding new goals and means to heal as a culture.

Put another way, any time you're recovering from oppression, your first concern has to be compassion for those harmed, not vengeance against those who oppressed.

Cough G'Kar Cough

[Yukaphile]

And tbh, given how brutal the Centauri were, I can't blame poor G'Kar for feeling that way in the beginning. The real problem is how much of a lech he was. Though... pressing that hard just made things worse. It's tragic how the Emperor couldn't apologize like he sought.

[Shuboy07]

Fuller wrote "The Darkness and the Light" and "Empok Nor" for DS9, both of which are mildly horror-themed and involve people being picked off one by one by crazed killers.

He wrote about 20 episodes of Voyager and while he was initially in charge of Discovery, he left early on to focus on American Gods. I'm to sure how much influence he had on the show, although female characters with male names is a recurring gimmick of his. I think his original vision for Discovery was more in the spirit of classic 60s Trek, but the show ended up being what I feared it would be when I first heard he was the show runner so dunno; he did have at least some influence on it's initial direction before parting ways.

According to interviews, Fuller also created the spore drive. It's the one bit of technology that I still feel is too advanced for the time period.