This is not another rant/complaint thread. But it's safe to say many people know I feel it's wasting its potential. Well, lemme tell you what I would do if I were in charge of STD, and then let others say how they'd handle it, what stories they'd tell. Tbh, I'd involve the Gorn, the Tholians, and the First Federation. Not Section 31. I'd give more reasonable explanations to why Kirk hadn't encountered them prior to his first meeting. Section 31 feels too much like it's trying to appeal to the reboot crowd or the old-school nineties crowd, when it should be about appealing to the TOS crowd, and the First Federation hasn't been seen since then. You could totally expand on their culture. Same with the Gorn and the Tholians. Hell, when Enterprise was improving, that's literally one of the first things they did right. Leave Section 31 for the 24th century. Or hell, have an advance party for the Kelvans before the Kelvans. Now admittedly I haven't watched that episode, but the idea of extragalactic races fascinates me. And yet you could still tie it into TNG. I'd mention they're planning to send probes to the "Bajoran" system. Include more space whales and stuff. So much potential.
But that's just me. What would you guys do?
What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
-
Yukaphile
- Overlord
- Posts: 8778
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:14 am
- Location: Rabid Posting World
- Contact:
What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
Based on some of the complaints I have heard of?
I would do another dimensional or temporal episode to explain away the apparent changes the show does with TOS. Either TOS is dimension 616 or some of the temporal cold war accelerated changes and advanced things. With an episode or two to hand waving those. Let the Enterprise be the ship in the other sector. Once in a while they get calls to do follow up on shenanigans reported by the famous ship. As you suggested, follow up on the gorn. Find out how much the 'First Federation' tech is real and how much is staged. Like the puppet was. Etc. Exploring glossed over ideas from before and finding some new ground that might not come up till TNG. Like say who found Betazed?
I would do another dimensional or temporal episode to explain away the apparent changes the show does with TOS. Either TOS is dimension 616 or some of the temporal cold war accelerated changes and advanced things. With an episode or two to hand waving those. Let the Enterprise be the ship in the other sector. Once in a while they get calls to do follow up on shenanigans reported by the famous ship. As you suggested, follow up on the gorn. Find out how much the 'First Federation' tech is real and how much is staged. Like the puppet was. Etc. Exploring glossed over ideas from before and finding some new ground that might not come up till TNG. Like say who found Betazed?
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
This is going to sound harsh, but fire the writers. I can live with trying new formats for the show, I can live with ignoring continuity, I can even begrudgingly live with obvious BS "science" that is the crux of the show (I'm looking at you spore warp drive, resurrection via "conservation of energy", Newton's 3rd law applying physical forces due to displacement in time???, starships 100's of years in the future vulnerable to SQL injection 
, data that can't be deleted because of magic encryption??? whose physical media cannot be hit with a wrench but can only be destroyed by hitting the entire ship with a point-blank matter antimatter energy release!!!!)
Actually, looking back I'm becoming less forgiving of the BS science.
But what's really unforgivable is the blatant inconsistencies in the plot. The 7 signals have appeared, have had their exact positions given by Spock, but the STD crew has to wait for them to appear? In the space between 2 episodes the Discovery goes from having its engines and communications disabled in the middle of a minefield controlled by a hostile computer, to having somehow destroyed the entire enemy base off screen? Some how the level of technology in a post-scarcity utopia is such that Ariam can be completely reconstructed after a shuttle craft crash, yet Pike's going to be stuck in a futuristic wheelchair/iron lung combo and there's a guy going about in a 21rst century manual wheelchair? Michael thinks she can trick her future self USING A PLAN SHE CAME UP WITH. The Discovery can spore drive warp to distances which would take 150 years for the Enterprise (a ship on a mission of exploration), yet it's impossible for Discovery to escape Section 31 by using the spore drive? The grand enemy, CONTROL, is perfectly willing to allow it's creation to arise as a paradox (by sending its past self sphere data); yet is unwilling to just send it's past self a copy of the data from the future (it's going to be a time paradox either way, why is it making it harder for itself)?
These are just the ones I remember off the top of my head, let alone the stuff that hit me while watching. These are blatantly obvious contradictions within the show; this just reduces STD to a farce. You can't have serious drama in a world that is surreal and nonsensical (in both how the universe itself works, and how the characters behave given their stated goals). Consequently, my first step would be to fire all of the writers (or at least bring on a head writer/editor/somebody! who can find the blatant problems and force the writer to correct them.
I suspect some (if not all) of this is due to behind-the-scenes drama, but frankly I don't care. I just want quality story telling. I can live with putting genuine effort into trying something new and failing, but STD's writing staff doesn't seem to be bothering to put in the effort. I can honestly say that I would be less upset if they dropped all the "cute reference" to the cannon and the massive effects budget and focused on coherent writing.
PS: I apologize for the post becoming somewhat rant-like; maybe I should have posted it into the other thread
, data that can't be deleted because of magic encryption??? whose physical media cannot be hit with a wrench but can only be destroyed by hitting the entire ship with a point-blank matter antimatter energy release!!!!)Actually, looking back I'm becoming less forgiving of the BS science.
But what's really unforgivable is the blatant inconsistencies in the plot. The 7 signals have appeared, have had their exact positions given by Spock, but the STD crew has to wait for them to appear? In the space between 2 episodes the Discovery goes from having its engines and communications disabled in the middle of a minefield controlled by a hostile computer, to having somehow destroyed the entire enemy base off screen? Some how the level of technology in a post-scarcity utopia is such that Ariam can be completely reconstructed after a shuttle craft crash, yet Pike's going to be stuck in a futuristic wheelchair/iron lung combo and there's a guy going about in a 21rst century manual wheelchair? Michael thinks she can trick her future self USING A PLAN SHE CAME UP WITH. The Discovery can spore drive warp to distances which would take 150 years for the Enterprise (a ship on a mission of exploration), yet it's impossible for Discovery to escape Section 31 by using the spore drive? The grand enemy, CONTROL, is perfectly willing to allow it's creation to arise as a paradox (by sending its past self sphere data); yet is unwilling to just send it's past self a copy of the data from the future (it's going to be a time paradox either way, why is it making it harder for itself)?
These are just the ones I remember off the top of my head, let alone the stuff that hit me while watching. These are blatantly obvious contradictions within the show; this just reduces STD to a farce. You can't have serious drama in a world that is surreal and nonsensical (in both how the universe itself works, and how the characters behave given their stated goals). Consequently, my first step would be to fire all of the writers (or at least bring on a head writer/editor/somebody! who can find the blatant problems and force the writer to correct them.
I suspect some (if not all) of this is due to behind-the-scenes drama, but frankly I don't care. I just want quality story telling. I can live with putting genuine effort into trying something new and failing, but STD's writing staff doesn't seem to be bothering to put in the effort. I can honestly say that I would be less upset if they dropped all the "cute reference" to the cannon and the massive effects budget and focused on coherent writing.
PS: I apologize for the post becoming somewhat rant-like; maybe I should have posted it into the other thread
-
Zoinksberg
- Officer
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:23 pm
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
Have the writers save their work and then execute them and activate their clones. Perhaps a fresh set of eyes will help get this fixed.
I mean, clearly they are all Vorta. Only a Vorta could have such a limited sense of taste and aesthetics as the writers have shown.
I mean, clearly they are all Vorta. Only a Vorta could have such a limited sense of taste and aesthetics as the writers have shown.
-
Yukaphile
- Overlord
- Posts: 8778
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:14 am
- Location: Rabid Posting World
- Contact:
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
I'd hire someone within the fan community, or maybe a whole team, who could serve as "fan advisors." For not just continuity, but to take the pulse of the general fandom, and to maintain not just continuity, but other things that should be consistent with the show's run. But that goes against the business mindset, that extra workers you gotta pay is an added expense, especially when you can just skimp by as is.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
-
Simplicius
- Officer
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:12 pm
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
I think there was already a thread like this but I can go into more detail.
Option A:
If I were brought on board just to make a few changes here and there, then I would focus on the Federation-Klingon war and cut out all the rest (spore drive, section thirty one, the mirror universe and so on). The Klingons would be ENT era, with some augments (similar to TOS) and others with the familiar TNG look (Ash Tyler would be the former, just a spy, no surgery required) and I'd fight hard to replace the Kelvin pulse weapons (Star Wars with a Star Trek paint job) with beam weapons (it's a small change but, in my opinion, it would go a long way towards making the series feel like Star Trek).
Option B:
If I was simply given a cast list and the 2250s time period to work with then ... here goes ...
I would reproduce 'The Cage' aesthetic as much as possible and explicitly break continuity in a few ways. First of all, there'd be women everywhere (roughly fifty/fifty gender distribution, with slightly more men on security detail and slightly more women in sickbay) and more importantly, there'd be a conscience effort to fulfill a twenty percent alien quota for background characters.
Humans are still in a clear majority but I would use the bigger budget to make the Federation feel more like a federation. There are Andorians, Tellarites and Vulcans for starters but I'd also consider including (and potentially developing) the races introduced by TMP.
Basically, I like aliens. I think they're neat and, ever since I was a kid, aliens have been my primary draw to science-fiction. With Firefly, the Expanse, Dark Matter and so on, all I have to say is "the twist is that there aren't any aliens" stops being interested after the first or second time around.
As for Discovery's famed "diversity", I'd make Phillipa Georgiou gay and she'd survive. I can't take any "diversity" talk seriously when the show has had a straight white male captain for the vast majority of its airtime. And Michael Burnham being a black woman doesn't cut it for me either. Outside of the fever dreams of intersectional lunatic academics, there is no significant group of who were fine with Sisko and Janeway but balk at the concept of the main character being both black and a woman (think of the children!), it's just not real.
If you want to do something bold, if you want to get "banned in the South" (but more likely in the beloved Chinese market) then make the CO gay.
My other big idea would be to explore the Tholians as a recurring antagonist. The twist would be that , as with the Sheliak in TNG, they're not really behaving badly or, at least, they aren't in the habit of breaking agreements with the Federation (like the Klingons) or violating the integrity of the Fed's borders (like the Romulans). Rather, conflicts would arise from Federation civillians and, maybe once or twice, Starfleet ships, slipping into Tholian territory to; flee criminals/authorities, smuggle wares/weapons, conduct studies of the Tholians. Sometimes people make mistakes.
The Tholians, fittingly for spiders, would represent Kantian ethics (Nietzsche called Kant a "fatal spider" after all). They have rules that ought to be followed and no mercy for aliens who break them. If the Federation gives its citizens so much freedom how can the Tholians expect them to honour any of their agreements. Maybe they don't buy that the latest science vessel caught scanning one of their radios/satelittes/colonies was just captained by a rogue explorer (ala the Hansens). Maybe they shouldn't buy it.
As for the Klingons, this era is actually the perfect time to tap into any given portrayal you want; crafty Klingons, nasty Klingons, honourable Klingons, pompous Klingons, and on and on.
Orions would also fit into this period quite snugly. Although, once again, I would explicitly break cotinuity with the notion that the Federation tolerated slavery. Starfleet, instead, could regularly kick the Orions' arses. The syndicate only survives by cutting deals and playing the great powers off against each other.
Obviously, if I was actually making it then I'd come up with something more substantial and I'm aware that the filming process would alter plenty of things, plus backstage drama, actor input and so on.
Option A:
If I were brought on board just to make a few changes here and there, then I would focus on the Federation-Klingon war and cut out all the rest (spore drive, section thirty one, the mirror universe and so on). The Klingons would be ENT era, with some augments (similar to TOS) and others with the familiar TNG look (Ash Tyler would be the former, just a spy, no surgery required) and I'd fight hard to replace the Kelvin pulse weapons (Star Wars with a Star Trek paint job) with beam weapons (it's a small change but, in my opinion, it would go a long way towards making the series feel like Star Trek).
Option B:
If I was simply given a cast list and the 2250s time period to work with then ... here goes ...
I would reproduce 'The Cage' aesthetic as much as possible and explicitly break continuity in a few ways. First of all, there'd be women everywhere (roughly fifty/fifty gender distribution, with slightly more men on security detail and slightly more women in sickbay) and more importantly, there'd be a conscience effort to fulfill a twenty percent alien quota for background characters.
Humans are still in a clear majority but I would use the bigger budget to make the Federation feel more like a federation. There are Andorians, Tellarites and Vulcans for starters but I'd also consider including (and potentially developing) the races introduced by TMP.
Basically, I like aliens. I think they're neat and, ever since I was a kid, aliens have been my primary draw to science-fiction. With Firefly, the Expanse, Dark Matter and so on, all I have to say is "the twist is that there aren't any aliens" stops being interested after the first or second time around.
As for Discovery's famed "diversity", I'd make Phillipa Georgiou gay and she'd survive. I can't take any "diversity" talk seriously when the show has had a straight white male captain for the vast majority of its airtime. And Michael Burnham being a black woman doesn't cut it for me either. Outside of the fever dreams of intersectional lunatic academics, there is no significant group of who were fine with Sisko and Janeway but balk at the concept of the main character being both black and a woman (think of the children!), it's just not real.
If you want to do something bold, if you want to get "banned in the South" (but more likely in the beloved Chinese market) then make the CO gay.
My other big idea would be to explore the Tholians as a recurring antagonist. The twist would be that , as with the Sheliak in TNG, they're not really behaving badly or, at least, they aren't in the habit of breaking agreements with the Federation (like the Klingons) or violating the integrity of the Fed's borders (like the Romulans). Rather, conflicts would arise from Federation civillians and, maybe once or twice, Starfleet ships, slipping into Tholian territory to; flee criminals/authorities, smuggle wares/weapons, conduct studies of the Tholians. Sometimes people make mistakes.
The Tholians, fittingly for spiders, would represent Kantian ethics (Nietzsche called Kant a "fatal spider" after all). They have rules that ought to be followed and no mercy for aliens who break them. If the Federation gives its citizens so much freedom how can the Tholians expect them to honour any of their agreements. Maybe they don't buy that the latest science vessel caught scanning one of their radios/satelittes/colonies was just captained by a rogue explorer (ala the Hansens). Maybe they shouldn't buy it.
As for the Klingons, this era is actually the perfect time to tap into any given portrayal you want; crafty Klingons, nasty Klingons, honourable Klingons, pompous Klingons, and on and on.
Orions would also fit into this period quite snugly. Although, once again, I would explicitly break cotinuity with the notion that the Federation tolerated slavery. Starfleet, instead, could regularly kick the Orions' arses. The syndicate only survives by cutting deals and playing the great powers off against each other.
Obviously, if I was actually making it then I'd come up with something more substantial and I'm aware that the filming process would alter plenty of things, plus backstage drama, actor input and so on.
-
technobabbler
- Officer
- Posts: 200
- Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:39 pm
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
1. ditch Michael Burnham or make it a real ensemble cast;
2. Just be honest and say it's an alternate timeline, not the Trek 1966-2005 timeline. Heck have a mirror universe episode in which they find Klingon cruiser/Romulan Bird of Prey/Federation ship from the TOS universe--1960's aesthetic and all
2. Just be honest and say it's an alternate timeline, not the Trek 1966-2005 timeline. Heck have a mirror universe episode in which they find Klingon cruiser/Romulan Bird of Prey/Federation ship from the TOS universe--1960's aesthetic and all
-
Yukaphile
- Overlord
- Posts: 8778
- Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:14 am
- Location: Rabid Posting World
- Contact:
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
Hell, this is one area I'd argue, from that other thread? That they're definitely "playing it safe." They wanna be diverse, but at the same time, they're not really. LGBT rights are the new civil rights, and how it relates to gender identity. You could bring back the Trills, show them in STD, and how they're a whole race of bisexuals/transgendered people. Yeah, sure, that's not how they were presented in TNG, but frankly DS9 rebooted them, so the door is completely open to say people knew about them in the TOS era. Perhaps they were not a Federation member-world yet and there were still social issues regarding LGBT rights in the Federation at the time that made admitting Trill difficult to some of its races. So much potential, what a waste.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
-
clearspira
- Overlord
- Posts: 5662
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:51 pm
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
You never proved that they are bi or trans the other times you brought this up. Sorry, I am not dropping that. There is no proof based on what we've seen that they are either.Yukaphile wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:08 pm Hell, this is one area I'd argue, from that other thread? That they're definitely "playing it safe." They wanna be diverse, but at the same time, they're not really. LGBT rights are the new civil rights, and how it relates to gender identity. You could bring back the Trills, show them in STD, and how they're a whole race of bisexuals/transgendered people. Yeah, sure, that's not how they were presented in TNG, but frankly DS9 rebooted them, so the door is completely open to say people knew about them in the TOS era. Perhaps they were not a Federation member-world yet and there were still social issues regarding LGBT rights in the Federation at the time that made admitting Trill difficult to some of its races. So much potential, what a waste.
-
MixedDrops
- Officer
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:39 am
Re: What would you do if you were in charge of STD?
Well, we know that Jadzia Dax doesn't mind oiling it up with other women. The question there is, is that because Jadzia herself was already bisexual, or did she inherit an attraction to women from the Dax symbiont?
They're aliens, so they don't really fit into the LGBT framework that humans have, but they can certainly be used as a vehicle to explore those concepts.
They're aliens, so they don't really fit into the LGBT framework that humans have, but they can certainly be used as a vehicle to explore those concepts.
