Would you live in the Federation?

[FaxModem1]

It's more in general all the observations people have made about how the Trek crews seem disturbed or generally nonplussed when they encounter even the most basic deviations in human behavior. Namely the time travel episodes like Future's End where they seem literally confused by the idea someone chooses to style and dye their hair. Which, the representation used, even by the standards of the 90s, was tame as all hell xD

I think you just need to find the right planet. The UFP seems to be okay with people doing whatever(as long as you aren't hurting others), to the point that a lot of people just find their clique and establish a colony based on it. For instance, we've seen people who prefer a certain way of living, and founding a colony on it (theme park Scottish planet, the human colony who modeled themselves after 18th century Irish way of living, the luddite colony, the Native American colonies near the Cardassian border, etc.). I wouldn't be surprised if there's a colony somewhere dedicated to be as Rock and Roll as possible, with glamour wigs, huge stereo systems, shoulder pads, and everyone wear glitter.

Point is, there are those outside the norm, and they may raise eyebrows at it, but it's not something they really seem to punish other people for.

[FaxModem1]

I guess we can file this under "Why it's hard to take Starfleet seriously as a military organization" file - because yes Barclay would be Section 8 in any real military. But ... there are not just civilians but literal children running around the ship, for God's sake, and there's so much emphasis in the early seasons on "we're explorers not soldiers" and such.

It almost seems like it's related to the thing SuccubusYuri mentioned where people seem completely shocked when someone doesn't act exactly like them. Someone who isn't extremely extroverted and confident bordering on arrogant? What?!

Oh poor Barclay. I just realized he was one of the science officers puking in a trashcan before every battle like in the jokes Chuck makes during First Contact.

Yeah, I always put that under Starfleet getting too comfortable after making peace with the Klingons and everything seeming quiet on all their borders. After Wolf 359 and first contact with the Dominion, they stopped putting families on Starfleet ships(Voyager didn't have any children on board until they were stranded, making babies, and picking up hitchhikers, Defiant didn't have any, etc.). They rested on their laurels, and woke up to a galaxy that wasn't as safe as they thought. Probably also has something to do with Starfleet originally being an exploration and science program that had to adopt military elements because of it being a bit of a dangerous universe out there.

[The Romulan Republic]

Of course, one wonders why defeating the Klingons would make them feel safe when their are individual beings and anomalies out their with orders of magnitude more destructive capability than the entire Klingon and Federation forces combined.

But those tend not to be threats that can be guarded against militarily- indeed, the biggest threats are ones that can only be countered through technology or diplomacy most of the time.

In light of that, TNG-era Starfleet's priorities were not naive or foolish, in terms of deemphasizing the military role. If anything, they were brilliantly pragmatic.

The chronic lack of hulls, and of certain basic safety measures on ships, is unforgivable, however, though the lack of hulls might be down to the Federation growing too quickly, rather than cutting ship-building too much. I mean, we see something like a couple of dozen members in the Federation Council as of Search for Spock, but by First Contact, Picard is talking about 150 member worlds.

Edit: Although "Enterprise is the only ship in range" syndrome was a factor even in the TOS film era.

[excalibur]

The one thing about the Federation that today's left liberal dreamers and resurgence of socialism would love is everything seems to be free. Food, clothes, shelter. Jobs aren't for wealthy anymore but preconditioned belief to "do your part" for society.

This begs the question of the why bother like the Picard's family vineyard, or the Sisko restaurant. Those types of jobs today are needed. Most people find enjoyment in their jobs, especially if it is their own business, but honestly, I rarely come across a person who ran a business solely for the intent of self fulfillment and hobby. If cooking food has become an art craft because of seemingly unlimited resources and time, then there should be countless crafts "businesses" across the Federation where the sole purpose of being around is to just share the experience of your trade...but without the motivation of money, would it still be called a trade?

Perhaps the arts like books, comics, tv, or in this case holo programs would be the primary "industry" because without the need for publishers dictating your work through money, it would be easier for works to have more freedom...but we are shown in canon that publishers of the future are just as annoying as they are today with the Voyager episode Author Author...A publisher exists to literally publish your work because you alone don't have the finance to fund your project but in a future where there is no money to bound your art...how do publishers and their influence still exist?

What about other basic freedoms like speech, arms, and religion? We don't see really any prominent human religion for the humans other than token episodes. How does Christianity and Islam (in particular, hardcore Islam culture) exist in a future where we have true equality and freedom from classes and I will harp on the classic interpretation of Islam in particular are very anti-women's right and anti-gay. Does this mean the humanity of the future is free of any form of religious institution?

Then you have the uncomfortable subject of colonization of the stars. Humanity, now equipped with the capability of planting themselves across the universe but something from the recent game Mass Effect Andromeda had me thinking about gays. In that story, several characters mention that for a colony to ultimately succeed, we pretty much need to make babies and colonists are screened for their fertility. Has it even been addressed if gays have a place in colonization because they can't alone produce offspring or are we in a future where artificial births are more commonplace. It doesn't seem so in Star Trek because the one other problem I had with the recent Star Trek movie, other than they made Sulu gay solely because the original actor is gay (despite protests of that actor that he played the character straight), is that his partner had a daughter that's also Asian like them. Either one, the future has given us true artificial births to create life from 2 males or the character purposefully adopted an Asian girl because they are Asian and that alone could tell us that subtle racism exists in the future or the writers of the movie is also racist (intentionally or not) by picking Sulu's adopted daughter also as Asian on the sole reason he and his partner is Asian.

We do have a weirdness in the canon when it recognizes that there's racism or remembering that humans were once racist. In TOS, Uhura was completely offended when Lincoln called her a negress because she didn't inherit the racism of her ancestors that felt that past oppression needed to be remembered and inherent disdain needs to be perpetuated for the sake of posturing. To her, it was history. But in DS9, Sisko was offended in participating in the Fontaine program or helping the crew resolve a plot because of the racist setting against women and colored people which kinda goes against the established inherent feelings of not being offended by human history but with an outlook that humanity has grown beyond that.

[TGLS]

We do have a weirdness in the canon when it recognizes that there's racism or remembering that humans were once racist. In TOS, Uhura was completely offended when Lincoln called her a negress because she didn't inherit the racism of her ancestors that felt that past oppression needed to be remembered and inherent disdain needs to be perpetuated for the sake of posturing. To her, it was history. But in DS9, Sisko was offended in participating in the Fontaine program or helping the crew resolve a plot because of the racist setting against women and colored people which kinda goes against the established inherent feelings of not being offended by human history but with an outlook that humanity has grown beyond that.

Here's my best explanation. Sisko is angry that the setting isn't portrayed accurately (this is how I remembered that bit of the episode). Uhura is OK with Lincoln because history is being presented accurately. Thus, in the optimistic Roddenberry future, making a hologram that is racist, is less offensive than an non-racist hologram, if the hologram would be more historically accurate.


Crazy world.

[Durandal_1707]

On Earth probably and during a time period where there's no equal parts threat of destruction and war. Most likely I'd never join Starfleet, not in the sense of no adventure, but at how the lore of the show portrays red shirts and random people to die for the sake of drama.

That's only a problem if you're stationed on the hero ship that's the star of a series, though. For other ships, I'd think the danger is more evenly distributed, especially if the senior staff keep beaming down to the planets all the time.

Put me down for the adventure being worth the risk.

[FaxModem1]

The one thing about the Federation that today's left liberal dreamers and resurgence of socialism would love is everything seems to be free. Food, clothes, shelter. Jobs aren't for wealthy anymore but preconditioned belief to "do your part" for society.

This begs the question of the why bother like the Picard's family vineyard, or the Sisko restaurant. Those types of jobs today are needed. Most people find enjoyment in their jobs, especially if it is their own business, but honestly, I rarely come across a person who ran a business solely for the intent of self fulfillment and hobby. If cooking food has become an art craft because of seemingly unlimited resources and time, then there should be countless crafts "businesses" across the Federation where the sole purpose of being around is to just share the experience of your trade...but without the motivation of money, would it still be called a trade?

Perhaps the arts like books, comics, tv, or in this case holo programs would be the primary "industry" because without the need for publishers dictating your work through money, it would be easier for works to have more freedom...but we are shown in canon that publishers of the future are just as annoying as they are today with the Voyager episode Author Author...A publisher exists to literally publish your work because you alone don't have the finance to fund your project but in a future where there is no money to bound your art...how do publishers and their influence still exist?

When it comes to why the Siskos and the Picards do labor? It's human nature to feel useful, to keep a tradition going, and to feel as if you're contributing something vital to the world. Harry Kim also didn't think it weird that there was a person running a coffee shop when he was in an alternate dimension where he never got on Voyager. People still need social interaction, so I imagine that's a huge part of the necessity of it. DS9 had a replimat, and the Enterprise had Ten-Forward.

When it comes to art and culture? If I were to guess? Distribution. One still needs a network of delivery for books, art, holoprograms, etc. I think there is money in the Federation, it's just not that important when so many needs are met. Raw materials and transportation of such also seems to be one industry that is needed in the UFP. I think this, plus the value of objects, is still in demand. You want a painting by Data, or the latest Captain Proton program? Well someone has to deliver it to you, same with the stuff needed so that you can make stuff with your replicators. Communications have been a bit of an Achilles heel for the UFP until the end of Voyager, wherein they can transmit across the galaxy. Also, as 'Author, Author' told us, IP is still a thing that lawsuits can be fought over.

What about other basic freedoms like speech, arms, and religion? We don't see really any prominent human religion for the humans other than token episodes. How does Christianity and Islam (in particular, hardcore Islam culture) exist in a future where we have true equality and freedom from classes and I will harp on the classic interpretation of Islam in particular are very anti-women's right and anti-gay. Does this mean the humanity of the future is free of any form of religious institution?

Going by Jake Sisko, teenage reporter, and his utter shock at his broadcasts not going out while under Dominion occupation, I'd say freedom of speech is still a thing for UFPers.

For arms, Riker and company weren't shocked that a colonist pulled a phaser on them in "The Survivors", they were more worried that an old couple in a nice house wouldn't be able to stand up to an alien invasion, or survive without a replicator on a desolate world. They didn't immediately arrest the nice old man for carrying a contraband firearm. In the episode where Ezri Dax investigates a murderer, one suspect owned a weapon, but it was because he was a collector, no one wanted to arrest him for having weapons either. However, there are no weapons allowed places, such as the promenade, where Odo confiscates weapons or tells them to leave the station(like he did with the Duras sisters), so I imagine having a weapon isn't a big deal. Open carry, however, is.

For religion, from what we see, no one really seems to care as long as you aren't affecting other people. People calmly discuss their beliefs with each other. See the cast of DS9 joking with each other about how Klingon gods are dead in 'Homefront'. The Enterprise had a Chapel where they officiated weddings, for instance. The Federation also has requirements for membership, you can't have a discriminatory caste system to join, so when Bajor went more religious fundamentalist, they had to face the prospect of not being given Federation membership.

Then you have the uncomfortable subject of colonization of the stars. Humanity, now equipped with the capability of planting themselves across the universe but something from the recent game Mass Effect Andromeda had me thinking about gays. In that story, several characters mention that for a colony to ultimately succeed, we pretty much need to make babies and colonists are screened for their fertility. Has it even been addressed if gays have a place in colonization because they can't alone produce offspring or are we in a future where artificial births are more commonplace. It doesn't seem so in Star Trek because the one other problem I had with the recent Star Trek movie, other than they made Sulu gay solely because the original actor is gay (despite protests of that actor that he played the character straight), is that his partner had a daughter that's also Asian like them. Either one, the future has given us true artificial births to create life from 2 males or the character purposefully adopted an Asian girl because they are Asian and that alone could tell us that subtle racism exists in the future or the writers of the movie is also racist (intentionally or not) by picking Sulu's adopted daughter also as Asian on the sole reason he and his partner is Asian.

They also picked an Asian girl because canonically, Demora Sulu serves on the Enterprise-B in Star Trek: Generations, is Sulu's daughter, and she was Asian. So, I think the interpretation is that she is Sulu's daughter, biologically. The Federation also does allow some tweaking with biology before a child is born, as we see with Torres and Paris's child, to remove a spinal problem while in utero. It's very possible that they used a surrogate, grew her in an artificial womb, or who knows what.

We do have a weirdness in the canon when it recognizes that there's racism or remembering that humans were once racist. In TOS, Uhura was completely offended when Lincoln called her a negress because she didn't inherit the racism of her ancestors that felt that past oppression needed to be remembered and inherent disdain needs to be perpetuated for the sake of posturing. To her, it was history. But in DS9, Sisko was offended in participating in the Fontaine program or helping the crew resolve a plot because of the racist setting against women and colored people which kinda goes against the established inherent feelings of not being offended by human history but with an outlook that humanity has grown beyond that.

As others have said, things being depicted realistically is Sisko's main contention. Sisko also got to experience that era through a vision of the Prophets, including being beaten by cops, so of course he's a tad bit biased against that era.

[excalibur]

They also picked an Asian girl because canonically, Demora Sulu serves on the Enterprise-B in Star Trek: Generations, is Sulu's daughter, and she was Asian. So, I think the interpretation is that she is Sulu's daughter, biologically. The Federation also does allow some tweaking with biology before a child is born, as we see with Torres and Paris's child, to remove a spinal problem while in utero. It's very possible that they used a surrogate, grew her in an artificial womb, or who knows what.

We don't know that and the controversy even from the original actor's perspective is that the movie made this change solely because he (Takei is a gay man in real life, so his famous character should be gay) as a matter of being PC. I highly doubt they picked Sulu's partner to be an Asian man and their daughter to be Asian solely because in the Prime Universe, Sulu had an Asian daughter who looked pretty much 100% Asian. From a lore standpoint, sure it might be possible that this Sulu being gay met another Asian who also is gay and they decided to have a daughter that also happens to be Asian without explaining the process of how it happened. It may be the common place for them, but for us in the past, it either needs to be explained if we point it out or not brought up at all. I think if you aren't a hardcore trekkie, which these new movies aren't designed for, you'd think. Did they just adopt an Asian girl to be their daughter on purpose?

My point is that for this movie, they made it a spot light more than it being an accepted common thing. Say a random character in the background is gay and they have children with them. As a background to the norm, you'd look pass it because it's the background. In this case, the writing was intentional. They wanted Sulu gay so we the audience sees him as a gay man first than just another awesome character. Otherwise, why bring it up? They didn't have Chekhov talking to a girlfriend or Bones, or Kirk having another fling.

It's not that, "does it matter or not" but more of the question...why bring it up? The question of anyone sexuality wasn't brought up in the 2 previous movies so...why here?


Let's go back to religion and different cultures of humans and how they may or may not fit in the narrative of Star Trek.

The Federation would say they would respect different cultures until it becomes part of the plot of drama. If you aren't a Federation member world, your culture and traditions is pretty much preserved despite the idea that the Star Trek future is a utopia...but only within the Federation and on Earth. Earth today is a bunch of very different types of people with vastly opposing ideas. The current problems facing how people want to be tolerant but at the same time, look down upon injustices of certain cultures only when it suits their political agenda is counter intuitive to how the Earth of Star Trek can exist. It would indeed take a world war where major governments and whole populations and world shattering events like first contact to pretty much force a divided humanity to see beyond their ancient feuds. How else can you explain a lack of true diversity in Star Trek lore but more of a unification of all humans under one banner. In a way that can be eerily similar to the Borg. Humans or rather identified as Terrans are made up of people from a once culturally divided species but now we are all pretty much the same only drawing on our distinctiveness when it suits the drama of the plot. Because I think the dream is humanity of Star Trek has grown beyond its "primitive" beginnings into a race that projects a unity of the species. There's even the occasional joke that all humans look the same because they dress the same, talk the same and think the same in the Star Trek lore.

[FaxModem1]

They also picked an Asian girl because canonically, Demora Sulu serves on the Enterprise-B in Star Trek: Generations, is Sulu's daughter, and she was Asian. So, I think the interpretation is that she is Sulu's daughter, biologically. The Federation also does allow some tweaking with biology before a child is born, as we see with Torres and Paris's child, to remove a spinal problem while in utero. It's very possible that they used a surrogate, grew her in an artificial womb, or who knows what.

We don't know that and the controversy even from the original actor's perspective is that the movie made this change solely because he (Takei is a gay man in real life, so his famous character should be gay) as a matter of being PC. I highly doubt they picked Sulu's partner to be an Asian man and their daughter to be Asian solely because in the Prime Universe, Sulu had an Asian daughter who looked pretty much 100% Asian. From a lore standpoint, sure it might be possible that this Sulu being gay met another Asian who also is gay and they decided to have a daughter that also happens to be Asian without explaining the process of how it happened. It may be the common place for them, but for us in the past, it either needs to be explained if we point it out or not brought up at all. I think if you aren't a hardcore trekkie, which these new movies aren't designed for, you'd think. Did they just adopt an Asian girl to be their daughter on purpose?

My point is that for this movie, they made it a spot light more than it being an accepted common thing. Say a random character in the background is gay and they have children with them. As a background to the norm, you'd look pass it because it's the background. In this case, the writing was intentional. They wanted Sulu gay so we the audience sees him as a gay man first than just another awesome character. Otherwise, why bring it up? They didn't have Chekhov talking to a girlfriend or Bones, or Kirk having another fling.

It's not that, "does it matter or not" but more of the question...why bring it up? The question of anyone sexuality wasn't brought up in the 2 previous movies so...why here?

For one, JJ Abrams was no longer the creative lead for the Trek series, so they actually tried to make a Trek film this time.

As for why an established character? That's a bit of a problem with being limited to about two hours of screentime. Trek has needed an openly gay character for a LONG time, and the makers of Beyond wanted to have one. Why? Trek has always tried to be representative. Give everyone a voice, and show that they are equal in the eyes of the Federation. However, they're doing a movie, and not a TV show, which means they have only a couple of hours to provide characterization and/or development of your cast. Anything else can eat away at time you need for developing the villain, a place, the plot, etc.

If you're going to show a gay character, you have to show that they are engaging in a gay activity, because audiences assume that every character is heterosexual unless shown otherwise. It's been a condition of films for the past century, so audiences expect all characters to fit within that mold. So, if you want to have a gay character, your choices are: A. not do it at all, B. do it with an entirely new character, or C. do it with an existing character. Since Trek is already an ensemble, they already have quite a few characters, and adding a new one just for the sake of diversity would eat screentime, and might not be executed well. So they went with option C. Sulu's gay(or bi), married, and has a kid.

And it's used in the story to show a couple things. 1. Personal stakes for our characters when Yorktown is attacked. 2. more fleshing out of who Sulu is. and 3. Kirk gets a moment to reflect where his life is going, as Sulu has a family and career, and seem happy, while Kirk is alone and unsatisfied with his career currently. Personally, I

Let's go back to religion and different cultures of humans and how they may or may not fit in the narrative of Star Trek.

The Federation would say they would respect different cultures until it becomes part of the plot of drama. If you aren't a Federation member world, your culture and traditions is pretty much preserved despite the idea that the Star Trek future is a utopia...but only within the Federation and on Earth. Earth today is a bunch of very different types of people with vastly opposing ideas. The current problems facing how people want to be tolerant but at the same time, look down upon injustices of certain cultures only when it suits their political agenda is counter intuitive to how the Earth of Star Trek can exist. It would indeed take a world war where major governments and whole populations and world shattering events like first contact to pretty much force a divided humanity to see beyond their ancient feuds. How else can you explain a lack of true diversity in Star Trek lore but more of a unification of all humans under one banner. In a way that can be eerily similar to the Borg. Humans or rather identified as Terrans are made up of people from a once culturally divided species but now we are all pretty much the same only drawing on our distinctiveness when it suits the drama of the plot. Because I think the dream is humanity of Star Trek has grown beyond its "primitive" beginnings into a race that projects a unity of the species. There's even the occasional joke that all humans look the same because they dress the same, talk the same and think the same in the Star Trek lore.

It's almost like, over time, people grow and adapt to each other's differences, and realize it's not a big deal. For instance, in our world, being left handed or having red hair was considered wrong, of the devil, etc. That has very much faded away with time. It still exists here and there, but to most people, that is not a big deal. Apply the same principle to different races, religions, sexual orientations, etc., and you have the Federation.

However, remember a key tenet of the Federation, brought to us by the Vulcans. IDIC, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. This is why we have people of all races, and all species, serving on Federation ships. We even have reference to religious celebrations on Starfleet ships.

From Data's Day:

Second Officers personal log, supplemental. This is the one thousand five hundred fiftieth day since the Enterprise was commissioned. Besides the arrival of Ambassador T'Pel, other events occurring today include four birthdays, two personnel transfers, a celebration of the Hindu Festival of Lights, two chess tournaments, one secondary school play, and four promotions. Overall, an ordinary day.

We have canon proof of religious celebrations in Starfleet. I somewhat doubt Crusher, Picard(who states himself to be somewhat of an agnostic), Riker or Geordi are Hindu, so we have evidence of religious multiculturalism on-board a Starfleet ship.

And as I have pointed out in previous posts, the Federation doesn't really seem to care about how you spend your off-hours, or what group you belong with. As noted, they have luddite Irish colonies, 'traditonal' Scottish colonies, Native American tribal colonies, etc., while also having cosmopolitan colonies all over. In short, cultures can both blend in with the rest of the Federation, and choose to make sure that their way of life is preserved and kept intact on their own world.

Personally, I find this as threatening as the average college campus, wherein people are exposed to people different from them, and are for the most part, okay with it.

[Wargriffin]

...

Sadly I'd be the asshole trying to open the Warpstorm to Hell and burn it all to the ground... cause all my basic needs are met... I might as well be a supervillain!

Blood for the Blood God
Defile for She who Thrists
Papa Nurgle loves you

and... Join Tzeentch... We have ice cream