Star Trek Discovery season 2 megathread

[Yukaphile]

Goddamn it, it sounds horrible... it's literally what I said, trying to whittle off the edges of the square peg so it fits in the round hole. It was never meant to be there, and even if you do achieve that, it doesn't change what the original design was. This was a Kelvin verse show because that's all the writers knew how to work on and what Kurtzman was most familiar with when they started out, and it's only now they wanna try to make it Trek, but I say, too little, too late. You can't even compare this to TNG, DS9, and Voyager. You just can't. Only Enterprise was that bad at the beginning. How long will this sustain itself? Trek is literally a zombie franchise now...

And for all those who insist this is somehow the Alpha Timeline, dudes, it's not. They're literally only saying that because Paramount has the rights to the movies, CBS has the rights to the show. They'd love to work on a show that's more in line with the movies rather than what came decades before, so saying it's the "Prime Timeline" is just a way to drum up nostalgia.

[MissKittyFantastico]

Here's a beef I have with STD. I've seen the uniforms they had in Season 1. Then I saw a Season 2 promo pic that included more traditional "TOS" outfits. My big issue with this is that it's a blatant continuity error. How the hell do you explain this?

By 'you' I assume you mean the people making Disco. They explained it by making episodes in which it's made pretty clear why there are different uniforms. You're not watching, so not knowing the explanation is on you.

Also, didn't you make a thread specifically to complain about the show?

[Simplicius]

Fair enough, and I don't think it's that big of a continuity error because there's enough to suggest that Starfleet at some point within 120 years does what they can to suppress any official information on Section 31 so that they could work more in the dark by the Dominion War. Just because Bashir wasn't aware of them doesn't necessarily mean nobody else has been, which is why Sloan is totally fine with Bashir blabbing about it to his colleagues because it's ultimately hearsay. You say it paints a bad picture about Starfleet, well that was already done in 1998 and is to this day still one of the most controversial decisions the franchise has done with lore. I can only imagine how Trek fans reacted to the one-two punch that was "Inquisition" and "In the Pale Moonlight" which both aired in succession.

There's two issues here. The first is the continuity error and the second is broader writing issue.

As for continuity, "one hundred years" is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is. In the real world, the Okhrana were dissolved over a hundred years ago. Do you think a modern Russian soldier with a genius level IQ would plausibly react with shock if a approached by a supposed Okhrana agent not that the organisation existed still but that it ever existed at all?

In Trek, humans clearly tend to live a little longer but supposing they don't, Vulcans clearly do and DIS shows us a few Vulcans in Starfleet (not to mention Spock). Your explanation supposes one of two things ...

1. Section 31 was just never mentioned by anyone for any reason outside of easily classified intelligence reports.
2. Starfleet Command erased any mention of them in; personal logs, captain's logs, memoirs and biographies, official and unofficial histories and encyclopedias, holo-novels and holo-plays. This would also include silencing any and all dissent or disagreement regarding such a far-reaching descision. Not to mention how they would infiltrate and convince foreign powers to dispose of their own records.

The first is implausible to the point of absurdity, making the world and its people seem hollow/stupid. The second turns Starfleet, and perhaps the Federation itself, into an Orwellian nightmare.

Section 31 were a controversial concept, to be sure, since they implied that the utopian society of federation required the help of an unaccountable and deeply unethical intelligence services. It does not, however, imply that the Federation is a totalitarian state (like the Romulans and Cardassians - in fact, Section 31 explicitly draws a distinction there, since the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order operate publicly to induce fear and to control the population). The viewer is also free to disagree, as Bashir does - we can say that S31 are a rogue organisation who do more harm than good (that they are not necessary to keep the Federation safe - since that's an informed attribute anyway, all we ever actually see them do is related to offence, not dfence).

By contrast, if Starfleet can memory hole an organisation then the utopia is a facade and Trek portrays yet another pointless sci-fi dystopia.

Second, even if we concede that Bashir, Sisko and O'Brien are pig ignorant or S31 did just manage to pull off the implausible feat of destroying all trace of their existence, we're still left with a question regarding the change: Why?

Why do the DIS writers need to turn one of DS9's most provocative and interesting ideas into its pointless and boring opposite? Sloan explicitly contrasts S31 against the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order, saying that his organisation's strength comes from effectively maintaining the illusion that it does not exist.

The DIS writers either disagree, and think that Starfleet being open about S31 and risking its exposure in perpetuity (unless they're omniscient and know that S31 will be able to "go dark" when the need arises) represents a superior idea (how?) or they just don't care about S31 beyond it being a recognisable part of the brand.

Let's make it an analogy to the Romulan ridges. You could turn all of the energy you've spent defending this pointless change to the ridges namely; it's been a hundred years, Trek has other random inconsistencies (see the Trill), maybe they [insert fan theory here] and that's why they have ridges ... and so on.

Yet, the contradiction in abstract still remains. The Romulans are meant to look like Vulcans, it's in the script and it's a part of their continuity. What justifies the change from a writing perspective? What is the point of substituting an interesting idea (Vulcan/Romulan parrallels) with a boring one (Romulans as yet another bumpy forehead)? Likewise, what is the point of substituting DS9's Section 31 with Discovery's?

You could have the exact same DIS storyline right now but just call them Starfleet Intelligence or the MACOs (if you must mine Trek for references). The same creative goals are achieved without hurting a better idea. The only reasonable explanation (outside of Kelvin) is that they knew/thought S31 would be a ratings draw but they didn't want to go to the effort of writing a story befitting them.

[Yukaphile]

They can explain it all they want, that doesn't stop it being a retcon. If it's a retcon you like, go for it. Besides, I've tried to improve my game lately, and even said I'd praise STD and future installments if it did things right.

[Makeshift Python]

As for continuity, "one hundred years" is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

I don't think it's a "slam dunk" either, only that the time gap at gives some leeway, and at this point I'm curious to how exactly they'll summarize the transition from what the were in the 2250s to how they become by the 2370s. But you are right that Starfleet classifying S31 to an extent draws them closer to a sci-fi dystopia, but we also have seen them turn a blind eye to committing genocide and that was before a war between the Dominion and Federation ever broke. So much for the utopia.

[clearspira]

As for continuity, "one hundred years" is not the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

I don't think it's a "slam dunk" either, only that the time gap at gives some leeway, and at this point I'm curious to how exactly they'll summarize the transition from what the were in the 2250s to how they become by the 2370s. But you are right that Starfleet classifying S31 to an extent draws them closer to a sci-fi dystopia, but we also have seen them turn a blind eye to committing genocide and that was before a war between the Dominion and Federation ever broke. So much for the utopia.

The Trek universe is dangerous as f-. A utopia that is truly peaceful could not exist, and certainly not with men like season 1 Picard commanding their shopping mall ships. S31 was saving them from themselves.

A real world example would be the US and the UK. How long do you think your way of life would survive if it could be easily invaded by someone less democratic?

[Yukaphile]

Sounds like it's taking the most superficial traits of TOS and exaggerating them.

[Admiral X]

Damn, I think I need a proper soundtrack to read Simplicius's posts to.


youtu.be/mgHxmAsINDk

[Yukaphile]

What is your context, Admiral X? The piece is good, though, I'll grant you that.

[Admiral X]

The only context is feeling like I should be listening to that while reading Simplicius's posts.