clearspira wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:44 pm
Let's be more accurate about that: God, who can see everything remember, decided to do bugger all about the talking snake. As In, he would have been sitting on his ass watching that happen and then got pissy about it. I dont see how its on us. But then sitting on his ass as bad things happen is kind of what he does so at least there is consistency.
And in both cases we're getting into the territory of "God, just do everything for me and leave me a helpless being without choice, but a happy one" essentially a pet, rather than something more that's crucial to not only His reaction in Genesis, but also the burden of responsibility placed upon Man.
He had a choice too. Do something about the snake, put a fence around the tree, not put the bloody tree there in the first place and instead somewhere else, have a balanced punishment instead of ''leave my garden of paradise forever and BTW Eve you will now have tremendous pain in childbirth that even hundreds of thousand of years later women will still suffer.''
I dunno, maybe its just me, but someone who is all loving wouldn't make women two hundred thousand years later suffer for the theft of one bit of fruit. You talk of man's burden; man's burden has been trying to find ways to wipe up the vindictive shit he saddled us with.
The curse of man is that we have to deal with entropy and work. That's everyone's curse only by the sweat of your brow cell and so on and so on. To be fair I think someone up above said that God's one flaws he can't deal with ignorance that's explaining why he became man in the form of Jesus Christ. That is to gain a perspective of the frailties of human existence. And the suffering that would be necessary to be the kind of perfect person that he wants. Ultimately accepting that the only way to make that reconciliation is by grace and sacrifice and it would have to be sacrifice of self. Ultimately proving he'll put his money where his mouth is
There is a reason why it's important to remember that the common Christian God is thought of as coming in three parts. There is the abiding spirit that is almost impossible to comprehend there's the father or in some ways a patriarch or King and then there is the Sun. So much like us and yet born of us and so much better
Besides the alternative is a God that basically as has been pointed out acts like the parents of a spoiled brat. That doesn't strike me as someone who has any self-respect. And again Adam and Eve were not children just adults. They were given the information they were told we're not to go and they demonstrated a lack of ability to follow through on this.
clearspira wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:44 pm
Let's be more accurate about that: God, who can see everything remember, decided to do bugger all about the talking snake. As In, he would have been sitting on his ass watching that happen and then got pissy about it. I dont see how its on us. But then sitting on his ass as bad things happen is kind of what he does so at least there is consistency.
And in both cases we're getting into the territory of "God, just do everything for me and leave me a helpless being without choice, but a happy one" essentially a pet, rather than something more that's crucial to not only His reaction in Genesis, but also the burden of responsibility placed upon Man.
He had a choice too. Do something about the snake, put a fence around the tree, not put the bloody tree there in the first place and instead somewhere else, have a balanced punishment instead of ''leave my garden of paradise forever and BTW Eve you will now have tremendous pain in childbirth that even hundreds of thousand of years later women will still suffer.''
I dunno, maybe its just me, but someone who is all loving wouldn't make women two hundred thousand years later suffer for the theft of one bit of fruit. You talk of man's burden; man's burden has been trying to find ways to wipe up the vindictive shit he saddled us with.
The curse of man is that we have to deal with entropy and work. That's everyone's curse only by the sweat of your brow cell and so on and so on. To be fair I think someone up above said that God's one flaws he can't deal with ignorance that's explaining why he became man in the form of Jesus Christ. That is to gain a perspective of the frailties of human existence. And the suffering that would be necessary to be the kind of perfect person that he wants. Ultimately accepting that the only way to make that reconciliation is by grace and sacrifice and it would have to be sacrifice of self. Ultimately proving he'll put his money where his mouth is
There is a reason why it's important to remember that the common Christian God is thought of as coming in three parts. There is the abiding spirit that is almost impossible to comprehend there's the father or in some ways a patriarch or King and then there is the Sun. So much like us and yet born of us and so much better
Besides the alternative is a God that basically as has been pointed out acts like the parents of a spoiled brat. That doesn't strike me as someone who has any self-respect. And again Adam and Eve were not children just adults. They were given the information they were told we're not to go and they demonstrated a lack of ability to follow through on this.
The biggest problem I cannot get over, as was pointed out a few comments back, is that he can see the future. He KNEW that Eve would eat that fruit, he KNEW that the snake was going to do what it did, and yet he acted as if it was some great betrayal and surprise. This story requires one thing to be true (that he is all-knowing, all-seeing) but also requires another to be true (that we have free will and thus was solely our choice) even though we blatantly don't have free will because the fact that God can see the future means that everything has already been laid out for us.
And I am not letting the ridiculousness of the punishment go. A hundred thousand years of women agonising through childbirth just because of this? And I am meant to read this as him being all loving and all forgiving? Sorry, this story does not hold up to an objective read if we assume that the message that I am being told is indeed what was intended.
clearspira wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:44 pm
Let's be more accurate about that: God, who can see everything remember, decided to do bugger all about the talking snake. As In, he would have been sitting on his ass watching that happen and then got pissy about it. I dont see how its on us. But then sitting on his ass as bad things happen is kind of what he does so at least there is consistency.
And in both cases we're getting into the territory of "God, just do everything for me and leave me a helpless being without choice, but a happy one" essentially a pet, rather than something more that's crucial to not only His reaction in Genesis, but also the burden of responsibility placed upon Man.
He had a choice too. Do something about the snake, put a fence around the tree, not put the bloody tree there in the first place and instead somewhere else, have a balanced punishment instead of ''leave my garden of paradise forever and BTW Eve you will now have tremendous pain in childbirth that even hundreds of thousand of years later women will still suffer.''
I dunno, maybe its just me, but someone who is all loving wouldn't make women two hundred thousand years later suffer for the theft of one bit of fruit. You talk of man's burden; man's burden has been trying to find ways to wipe up the vindictive shit he saddled us with.
The curse of man is that we have to deal with entropy and work. That's everyone's curse only by the sweat of your brow cell and so on and so on. To be fair I think someone up above said that God's one flaws he can't deal with ignorance that's explaining why he became man in the form of Jesus Christ. That is to gain a perspective of the frailties of human existence. And the suffering that would be necessary to be the kind of perfect person that he wants. Ultimately accepting that the only way to make that reconciliation is by grace and sacrifice and it would have to be sacrifice of self. Ultimately proving he'll put his money where his mouth is
There is a reason why it's important to remember that the common Christian God is thought of as coming in three parts. There is the abiding spirit that is almost impossible to comprehend there's the father or in some ways a patriarch or King and then there is the Sun. So much like us and yet born of us and so much better
Besides the alternative is a God that basically as has been pointed out acts like the parents of a spoiled brat. That doesn't strike me as someone who has any self-respect. And again Adam and Eve were not children just adults. They were given the information they were told we're not to go and they demonstrated a lack of ability to follow through on this.
The biggest problem I cannot get over, as was pointed out a few comments back, is that he can see the future. He KNEW that Eve would eat that fruit, he KNEW that the snake was going to do what it did, and yet he acted as if it was some great betrayal and surprise. This story requires one thing to be true (that he is all-knowing, all-seeing) but also requires another to be true (that we have free will and thus was solely our choice) even though we blatantly don't have free will because the fact that God can see the future means that everything has already been laid out for us.
And I am not letting the ridiculousness of the punishment go. A hundred thousand years of women agonising through childbirth just because of this? And I am meant to read this as him being all loving and all forgiving? Sorry, this story does not hold up to an objective read if we assume that the message that I am being told is indeed what was intended.
Determinism doesn't deride the concept of opportunity and choice.
"A culture's teachings - and more importantly, the nature of its people - achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves, or find themselves lacking."
— Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:49 pm
Wow, that became religious very quickly.
It's an episode dealing with the possible non-existence of the afterlife after a near death experience. Religion was bound to be discussed sooner or later.
Yukaphile wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:49 pm
Wow, that became religious very quickly.
It's an episode dealing with the possible non-existence of the afterlife after a near death experience. Religion was bound to be discussed sooner or later.
Seriously! I'm just surprised it didn't turn out sooner.
Also I was a little disappointed this forum shifting into other contention episodes, specifically The Darkness and the Light. Because I do have serious (and heavy thoughts) about that one, but I'm not sure if I'd rather save them for when it's gets it's own review.
Regarding the questions of God's power and benevolent within in the realm of science fiction: anyone else here read Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow by any chance?
