VOY: Mortal Coil Review

[Darmani]

Determinism doesn't deride the concept of opportunity and choice.

Of course it does. How can you possibly have free will if everything is already decided for you? You are on a railroad from birth until death.

Well for one I don't believe in free will. At least not in the definition that's implied by that contacts. All you get is choices and consequences. But there are some choices you can't make and there are some consequences that are entirely out of your control. But that doesn't change who you are is determined by your choices. If no matter what choice you make today you have a heart attack when you go to sleep that doesn't mean that you don't have free will or you didn't have choices and opportunities. Just like just because someone dies in a plane crash later that day doesn't mean helping them go to the airport wasn't a Act of Charity on your part

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Determinism doesn't deride the concept of opportunity and choice.

Of course it does. How can you possibly have free will if everything is already decided for you? You are on a railroad from birth until death.

Well for one I don't believe in free will. At least not in the definition that's implied by that contacts. All you get is choices and consequences. But there are some choices you can't make and there are some consequences that are entirely out of your control. But that doesn't change who you are is determined by your choices. If no matter what choice you make today you have a heart attack when you go to sleep that doesn't mean that you don't have free will or you didn't have choices and opportunities. Just like just because someone dies in a plane crash later that day doesn't mean helping them go to the airport wasn't a Act of Charity on your part

Free will for all intensive purposes involves just having more choices than fewer. Using it to rebuke religious fate or scientific determination is nonetheless aspirational.

[TrueMetis]

Determinism doesn't deride the concept of opportunity and choice.

Of course it does. How can you possibly have free will if everything is already decided for you? You are on a railroad from birth until death.

Because choice and agency. God is the one giving you "free will." He happens to know everything, but that doesn't mean that he's deciding for you.

It set up all the initial parameters, so yes it does.

ETA: And the phrase is "for all intents and purposes" not intensive purposes.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Determinism doesn't deride the concept of opportunity and choice.

Of course it does. How can you possibly have free will if everything is already decided for you? You are on a railroad from birth until death.

Because choice and agency. God is the one giving you "free will." He happens to know everything, but that doesn't mean that he's deciding for you.

It set up all the initial parameters, so yes it does.

Yep. It set up the parameters which included free will... There's nothing I've heard about God forcing you to acknowledge him, just that he's always with you .

ETA: And the phrase is "for all intents and purposes" not intensive purposes.

Thanks lol.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

There's actually one kind of fun minority Christian view called open theism, which holds that God doesn't know the future (as a consequence of libertarian free will). It's not the orthodox position, but it does put an interesting spin on certain passages where God seems surprised, changes his mind, or goes with a Plan B or C.

The free will vs. determinism question is hardly a new one in Christian/theological circles, and it gets waay too involved, complicated, and off-topic for me to want to get into here. I'll just say that how a person answers that question has profound implications on their interpretation of the Garden of Eden passage and theodicy (i.e. theological or philosophical attempts to explain evil and/or suffering) in general. The one thing everyone seems to agree on, which some people here seem to be missing, is that it's not actually about the fruit.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'll just say that how a person answers that question has profound implications on their interpretation of the Garden of Eden passage and theodicy (i.e. theological or philosophical attempts to explain evil and/or suffering) in general. The one thing everyone seems to agree on, which some people here seem to be missing, is that it's not actually about the fruit.

I've talked about the garden in another thread. My take was more about latent ramifications of eating the fruit, not the act itself, so I'm not sure how that fits with what you're saying here.

[Yukaphile]

That would be interesting. It reminds me of what Bill Murray said in Groundhog's Day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VF5P7qLaEQ

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

That would be interesting. It reminds me of what Bill Murray said in Groundhog's Day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VF5P7qLaEQ

He said a lot of things.

[Yukaphile]

"Well, maybe the real God uses tricks. You know, maybe he's not omnipotent. Maybe he's just been around so long he knows everything."

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Yeah I thought you might mean that one. Not certain how it reminded you of that, but cheers.