The Expanse (ENT)

[CaptainCalvinCat]

I might be the only person on this planet, who liked the more episodic style of Enterprise, before they decided to make it all about that 9/11-Allegory. I had no problem with them being those first explorers and basically just wandering around, because that was, what I would the first starship crew ever, that was on their way into the great unknown, would expect to do. Wandering about, stopping here, stopping there, making contacts, failing miserably, because first starship crew ever. Okay, I could've lived without the temporal cold war... well and Archer, Tucker and Reed having the hots for T'Pol. Well, on the other hand: Jolene Blalock. ^^ Well, that plus: there are apparently a lot of Trip-T'polers out there.

And while I really liked that show, I could tell you why I didn't support it back in the day.

It was an unfortunate combination.

One: I have had at least the first six episodes on video-tape (one even with dutch subtitles, which enables me to tell you that "vulcan" is "vulcaansen" in dutch - well and from a german comedy-show with dutch-german-actor Rudi Carrell I can tell you that "kloodsaak" means "asshole", so we both can now insult a person as vulcan asshole)

two: Our TV-Station, which was calling itself the biggest Trek-Station at that time (Sat 1) was really shitty with the airing schedule. For example, I zapped around one sunday afternoon and watched the last episode of season 3, which I didn't even know, was airing, because Sat.1 didn't promote it.

Three: Season 2 to 4 never were published on video-tape and I didn't have a DVD-Player when season 2 was being published. Later on I bought a DVD-Player and of course now I own the complete Enterprise run.

One thing, that you said, that made me want to comment on, was, that Enterprise Season 1 was still trapped in the story-telling of the 90s and that it lagged the sophistication of 21st century story-telling. I gotta say: I'm not a big fan of "everything has to have that 'sophistication'." If you ask me, for me it totally would've sufficed, if they would've told episodic tales of the Enterprise crew doing, what the shows claim was: to boldy go, where no one has gone before.

Not "to tell a story, that really is just us banking on 9 Eleven and the whole war against terror."

You have 24 for that bullcrap. Do we need Star Trek being in that, too? I mean, the closest thing, SG-1 ever did as a comment on the war on terror was "Heroes Part 2" in which they unceremoniously killed off Janet Fraiser. And that was a show, that dealt with people in the military - while Daniel Jackson was the resident "Gutmensch" (starry eyed idealist). So what does 9/11 have to do with Trek? I mean, they had their 9/11 - it was called "Wolf 359", so why retconning this story arc in, so that the show can get more dark, broody, edgy, asking questions and stuff like that? I would've been perfectly fine with Enterprise just being "Archer and his crew exploring the wonders of the universes - without being dicks", because that would've been a nice counterpoint or a juxtaposition towards the more grim, gritty TV-shows of that time.

[excalibur]

I do like how Enterprise bring in an actual military force, the closest thing we have to space marines in Star Trek. It isn't that it was sorely missing but a why not. Star Trek has always used the Security department to represent the more military aspect of Starfleet, but the sound of their name is more or less akin to mall rent a cops and sometimes they act like it too. Plus the fact that Security is integrated into the Starfleet departments and ranks mean even though their job tells them to do only one thing, the plot and lore of Trek mixes them to be more involved with others.

We know why there are no space marines on obvious space naval vessels with space navy ranks because of Rodenberry's vision of the future, but with the episodes that explain to us the lore of Star Trek, how there had been a war with the Klingons and the Romulans before TOS's events tells us that Starfleet should at least have some sort of actual military branch that's meant to safeguard this vision of the future. Throughout Trek we see convoluted writing or situational writing that forces characters that have no place in a "military role" but become the crutch of the plot, like Picard going into espionage at his age.

It isn't until DS9 where it is explained that O'Brien is actually the closest thing to an NCO Starfleet has, since he has stated that he's no an officer, according to the lore, one of 2 only named enlisted rank characters officially

In TNG, he was the "Transporter Chief" and that seems like an odd singular position and then they changed it to "The Chief", with later stating his rank might actually be Senior Chief Petty Officer. Which explained why people call him "Chief" as a nickname to his rank.

The inclusion of The Chief's backstory tells us that in the lore of Trek as of DS9, there are those who aren't officer rank that pretty much do a lot of the grunt work in Star Trek. An Ensign, even though is a lowest naval officer rank, is indeed an officer and there should be less officer ranked characters in Trek than it's shown.

It's almost like Starfleet Academy is a military school like West Point, but also Officer Candidate School because it seems that when you graduate the Academy, you are given the rank of Ensign and assigned to a post. It is never explained how enlistment into Starfleet works with people like the Chief who didn't go to the Academy

[FaxModem1]

It should be noted that Roddenberry did experiment with the idea of Space Marines a little. Tasha Yar was based on the character Vasquez from Aliens, and was originally named "Macha Hernandez". This is the original role Marina Sirtis tried out for, and Denise Crosby tried out for Troi. They flipped the actresses around. By the time the show had aired, Yar was a regular Starfleet security chief. Her backstory stayed largely the same, as someone from a horrible colony that had gangs of rapists and with a rough life. I wonder what the show would have been like if she had stayed on, and they had expanded her character the same way they had for most of the crew.

[J!!]

I think the more interesting question is what the show would've been like with Crosby as Troi, and Sirtis as Yar.

[StrangeDevice]

It should be noted that Roddenberry did experiment with the idea of Space Marines a little. Tasha Yar was based on the character Vasquez from Aliens, and was originally named "Macha Hernandez". This is the original role Marina Sirtis tried out for, and Denise Crosby tried out for Troi. They flipped the actresses around. By the time the show had aired, Yar was a regular Starfleet security chief. Her backstory stayed largely the same, as someone from a horrible colony that had gangs of rapists and with a rough life. I wonder what the show would have been like if she had stayed on, and they had expanded her character the same way they had for most of the crew.

Meeting her sister in "Legacy" would have packed more of a punch, I feel. Tasha got away from it all by joining Starfleet, but her sister was stuck with her lot.

[CrashGordon94]

I think the more interesting question is what the show would've been like with Crosby as Troi, and Sirtis as Yar.

Reminds me of when I heard that Brent Spiner was gonna be Picard and Patrick Stewart was gonna be Data, then they switched them around.

[Nessus]

While it's never explicitly stated, I always sort of had the impression that Starfleet didn't have enlisted ranks in the way that modern militaries do.

That is to say, Starfleet doesn't offer short term commissions like a modern militaries. Starfleet enlistment operates as an open-ended career choice, more like joining the police. People can advance according to their abilities and desire, or resign at their own discretion (as long as it's not in the middle of a mission), but everyone joins on the premise of a career rather than a "tour of duty". Lots of people rise to a certain rank or job where they're either most comfortable/satisfied, or most capable, and stay there for more or less the rest of their career. I got the impression that a good 2/3 of Starfleet is actually career ensigns, lieutenants, commanders, etc.

"Ensign" doesn't mean the same thing as in modern military parlance, as in Starfleet there are no explicitly non-career members, only members who are trained and promoted to different career levels. There is no enlisted/officer distinction, so "ensign" is the base rank one has when one leaves the academy, but this rank does not mean the same thing that it does in modern organizations in terms of training or authority. I figure "ensign" means about the same as enlisted in terms of responsibility and authority, but with additional training that's sort of "officer school lite" (since it's assumed they will be career members, basic training includes more investment to that end). I suspect the reason you don't see many NCOs is because being an NCO isn't something one would be locked into.

For most personnel, being an NCO would just be a rare temporary oddity. While Starfleet personnel probably do get paid some kind of currency for personal discretionary use, I don't think it's a salary. Maybe more like a petty cash allowance that doesn't really have any meaning or use outside of shore leave at non-Starfleet ports, and isn't tied to rank. There's no financial reward for rising in rank, so if you're high enough to have your own stateroom, the perks of rising higher are mostly about job autonomy and ambition. NCO-hood is a dead-end career limbo rank class that only exists for battlefield promotion reasons. There's no incentive to keeping it, and no barrier or disincentive to exiting it, so most NCOs either revert to their former rank or go through the process of getting their promotion officially certified or whatever at their earliest opportunity.

O'Brien could apply for the training and certification or whatever to gain the upwardly-mobile, non-NCO equivalent of his rank at any time, and with his references and experience get it easily, but he doesn't want to. He'd be very uncomfortable with command, and is actually rather proud of being "blue collar" in much the same way that Sisko's dad is proud of being an old-style chef. He likes getting his hands dirty; it makes him feel useful in a very direct, practical way that he finds fulfilling. He would hate a job that had him delegating that work to others while he juggled logs and spreadsheets, which is exactly what the non-NCO equivalent of his rank would mean. For him, NCO-hood is a loophole that gets him more authority and autonomy than the highest blue collar rank while still allowing him to do mostly blue collar work. He is an NCO by choice, but is very self-effacing, and so inadvertently (to us: his coworkers don't get this impression 'cause they know the system and thus what he's on about better than we do) gives off the impression of being stuck in a "nothing to be done about it, so there's no point in talking about it" sort of way.

That's my vague impression, at least. I haven't gone over the dialog with a fine tooth comb, so any of that might be contradicted by some line somewhere that I never noticed or remembered.

[SimbaDeLarge]

I was 6 , maybe 7 years old when ENT was first broadcasted and thus the show had a bit of a diffrent effect on me than on older Trekkies. Granted, the reruns of TNG also Managed to bedazzle my young mind just as well with it's fantastic space ships, weird looking Panels and the coolest thing of them all , the transporter. Now when the end of season 2 and subsequently season 3 came along , my brother and i would have had technically speaking to wait for the german Free TV broadcast of said episodes. Yet back in 2003/4 the Internet was Thankfully allready filled with those ratchet souls who engulfed in the act of filesharing and so we got a bit of an early look at the episodes. However, my english back then was barely existant so i was only provided with Visual input and a bunch of uncomprehensible gibberish, mixed in with a few familiar words every now and then. So most of what i remember from the episode, is the enterprise wrecking that klingon ship and the attack of the Xindi probe .

[CaptainCalvinCat]

I was 6 , maybe 7 years old when ENT was first broadcasted and thus the show had a bit of a diffrent effect on me than on older Trekkies. Granted, the reruns of TNG also Managed to bedazzle my young mind just as well with it's fantastic space ships, weird looking Panels and the coolest thing of them all , the transporter. Now when the end of season 2 and subsequently season 3 came along , my brother and i would have had technically speaking to wait for the german Free TV broadcast of said episodes. Yet back in 2003/4 the Internet was Thankfully allready filled with those ratchet souls who engulfed in the act of filesharing and so we got a bit of an early look at the episodes. However, my english back then was barely existant so i was only provided with Visual input and a bunch of uncomprehensible gibberish, mixed in with a few familiar words every now and then. So most of what i remember from the episode, is the enterprise wrecking that klingon ship and the attack of the Xindi probe .

That was how I felt, when I bought a dutch Video Cassette in the netherlands and had two foreign languages to juggle - english for the audio and dutch for the subtitles. At least, I know that "Vulcan" is Vulcaansen" in dutch, that's something. ^^

[excalibur]

While it's never explicitly stated, I always sort of had the impression that Starfleet didn't have enlisted ranks in the way that modern militaries do.

That is to say, Starfleet doesn't offer short term commissions like a modern militaries. Starfleet enlistment operates as an open-ended career choice, more like joining the police. People can advance according to their abilities and desire, or resign at their own discretion (as long as it's not in the middle of a mission), but everyone joins on the premise of a career rather than a "tour of duty". Lots of people rise to a certain rank or job where they're either most comfortable/satisfied, or most capable, and stay there for more or less the rest of their career. I got the impression that a good 2/3 of Starfleet is actually career ensigns, lieutenants, commanders, etc.

"Ensign" doesn't mean the same thing as in modern military parlance, as in Starfleet there are no explicitly non-career members, only members who are trained and promoted to different career levels. There is no enlisted/officer distinction, so "ensign" is the base rank one has when one leaves the academy, but this rank does not mean the same thing that it does in modern organizations in terms of training or authority. I figure "ensign" means about the same as enlisted in terms of responsibility and authority, but with additional training that's sort of "officer school lite" (since it's assumed they will be career members, basic training includes more investment to that end). I suspect the reason you don't see many NCOs is because being an NCO isn't something one would be locked into.

For most personnel, being an NCO would just be a rare temporary oddity. While Starfleet personnel probably do get paid some kind of currency for personal discretionary use, I don't think it's a salary. Maybe more like a petty cash allowance that doesn't really have any meaning or use outside of shore leave at non-Starfleet ports, and isn't tied to rank. There's no financial reward for rising in rank, so if you're high enough to have your own stateroom, the perks of rising higher are mostly about job autonomy and ambition. NCO-hood is a dead-end career limbo rank class that only exists for battlefield promotion reasons. There's no incentive to keeping it, and no barrier or disincentive to exiting it, so most NCOs either revert to their former rank or go through the process of getting their promotion officially certified or whatever at their earliest opportunity.

O'Brien could apply for the training and certification or whatever to gain the upwardly-mobile, non-NCO equivalent of his rank at any time, and with his references and experience get it easily, but he doesn't want to. He'd be very uncomfortable with command, and is actually rather proud of being "blue collar" in much the same way that Sisko's dad is proud of being an old-style chef. He likes getting his hands dirty; it makes him feel useful in a very direct, practical way that he finds fulfilling. He would hate a job that had him delegating that work to others while he juggled logs and spreadsheets, which is exactly what the non-NCO equivalent of his rank would mean. For him, NCO-hood is a loophole that gets him more authority and autonomy than the highest blue collar rank while still allowing him to do mostly blue collar work. He is an NCO by choice, but is very self-effacing, and so inadvertently (to us: his coworkers don't get this impression 'cause they know the system and thus what he's on about better than we do) gives off the impression of being stuck in a "nothing to be done about it, so there's no point in talking about it" sort of way.

That's my vague impression, at least. I haven't gone over the dialog with a fine tooth comb, so any of that might be contradicted by some line somewhere that I never noticed or remembered.

I think the Star Trek universe has non enlisted personnel because all those red shirts and background crew can't all be Ensign in rank and are addressed with a rank called "Crewman" that's below an Ensign rank.

I think the people behind Star Trek fundamentally don't know how the military works