What is Captain Janeway's biggest mistake?

[The Romulan Republic]

Didn't Kes have some communication with 8472 where they (or at least one of them) stated their intention to commit genocide? Plus attacking Voyager and its away team unprovoked. A little thin, perhaps, but not exactly zero cause to consider this powerful new alien hostile.

And Kes brought them across Borg space. They were already part way after the events of Scorpion, surely?

Also, please provide quotes to show that Janeway's plan was to commit genocide, as opposed to simply repulse 8472's attack.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

Kirsten Beyer's really good Voyager novels spend a great deal of time giving consequences for the irresponsible decisions that Janeway and crew make during the series.

Scorpion is pretty much the height of Voyager, in my opinion, but the decision to make a deal with the Borg is extremely, extremely questionable. The fact is that Janeway has next to no information about Species 8472 (that being the species' name is proof enough of that). By the time that she decides to ally herself with the Borg, a vague premonition by Kes is the only evidence she has that they are targeting anyone other than the Borg.

What takes her decision from highly questionable to arguably morally bankrupt and despicable is her motivation. What she's agonizing over before deciding to strike the deal isn't the fate of the Delta Quadrant, but the inconvenience posed by not being able to pass through Borg space. Even worse- I'd have to rewatch the episodes to argue firmly, but I don't think Voyager even needed the Borg to develop the nanoprobes (maybe they simply helped with distribution?)- but Janeway doesn't wait long enough to find out.

Worst of all, interference with Borg internal affairs is a clear violation of the Prime Directive.

As far as other bad decisions, old Janeway makes a similarly selfish decision in Endgame, which is another questionable one (although young Janeway gets off the hook somewhat). Of course, there are numerous other examples to pick from.

[Durandal_1707]

Didn't Kes have some communication with 8472 where they (or at least one of them) stated their intention to commit genocide? Plus attacking Voyager and its away team unprovoked. A little thin, perhaps, but not exactly zero cause to consider this powerful new alien hostile.

IIRC, the premonition Kes had was the words "The weak shall perish." Sounds like the kind of slogan the Klingons would use, and we don't go exterminating them for it.

And Kes brought them across Borg space. They were already part way after the events of Scorpion, surely?

The deal was that the Borg would leave them alone while they traveled through their space, which would take a long time. The events of the episode didn't last long enough for them to have gotten far. My understanding was that at the end of Scorpion, they'd backtracked to roughly where they had been, because otherwise, y'know, they'd be screwed, hanging out right in the middle of Borg space like that.

Also, please provide quotes to show that Janeway's plan was to commit genocide, as opposed to simply repulse 8472's attack.

* The reason the Borg invaded 8472's space was because they wanted to assimilate them, which once complete involves eliminating a whole species. Voyager knowingly and willingly gave them the nanoprobes they needed to do this. That's accessory to attempted genocide right there.

* As a result of not having to fight 8472 anymore, the Borg were free to wipe out God only knows how many planets that would have been spared otherwise. Each one of these on its own is a genocide.

[The Romulan Republic]

None of that addresses the fact that 8472 attacked Voyager without provocation (unless "being in the vicinity of a Borg ship" constitutes provocation).

I will acknowledge that Janeway took actions which could have facilitated genocide, though her intentions were more likely to prevent genocide than to cause it.

However, I do not feel that it is fair to blame her for every subsequent assimilation by the Borg. Those losses all had multiple causes, and there is no way to know how things would have gone, or if they would have been better, in an alternate universe where Janeway did not help the Borg against 8472. Moreover, I am wary of the implication that anyone who threatens the Borg should automatically gain carte blanche.

[Durandal_1707]

None of that addresses the fact that 8472 attacked Voyager without provocation (unless "being in the vicinity of a Borg ship" constitutes provocation).

Well, look at it from their perspective:

You're sitting around minding your own business, when all of a sudden these all these spatial rifts appear, and evil creatures from another dimension start swarming in and attacking you. This already would be enough to send most people into paranoid panic mode right there. Okay, so you blow up the invaders, but of course more keep coming, so you launch a counterattack into the enemy dimension in order to take the fight away from your homeland. Now, in the enemy galaxy, you pretty much encounter more of those same cube-shaped ships that have been invading you, and you fight them for a while. After a while, though, you notice that a formation of the cube ships is accompanied by this one weird-shaped ship that's doesn't look like the rest. The people on it mostly look like the ones that have been attacking you, maybe with a few less metal bits. Weird. The cube ships seem to be friendly with the weird ship, though; one of the cubes has what looks like a rendezvous with it. Neither one fires at the other, they just seem to say hello, after which the cube fleet heads off to attack you. Is the weird ship their C&C vessel, maybe, giving it its orders? Who knows. Well, you keep an eye on it. You fight off the cube ships, and blow a bunch of them up, and then the weird ship shows up. First thing it does, it tries to hit you with its transporters. Then, it tries to lock on you with a tractor beam. Then, it sends its crew members onto the Borg ship. Once again, they seem friendly with the Borg; weapons down, both walk right past each other without seeming bothered by the other's presence. Once you show up, though, they suddenly pull their guns out. When you take out the one of the evil aliens that's been trying, over and over, to infect you with some kind of nanoprobe, there the weird aliens are, standing right there, pointing their guns at you, not pointing their guns at the evil nightmare creatures.

Yeah, I can't see how they got the wrong idea at all.

I will acknowledge that Janeway took actions which could have facilitated genocide, though her intentions were more likely to prevent genocide than to cause it.

Janeway took actions with a woefully inadequate set of information, and got involved in a conflict she knew eff-all about.

However, I do not feel that it is fair to blame her for every subsequent assimilation by the Borg. Those losses all had multiple causes, and there is no way to know how things would have gone, or if they would have been better, in an alternate universe where Janeway did not help the Borg against 8472. Moreover, I am wary of the implication that anyone who threatens the Borg should automatically gain carte blanche.

Okay, let's look at it this way. Hitler is rampaging all over Europe. He's taken Poland, Czechoslovakia, and France, and it looks like England and God knows who else will be next. However, Stalin is fighting him, and it appears that he might be even more powerful. You don't know much about Stalin though. He doesn't seem like a nice guy himself; maybe he's even worse than Hitler? Who knows. What you do know, though, is that Hitler is the most unambiguously evil leader you've ever seen, and he's invading all your friends, and it's pretty clear that he presents a very clear and immediate threat to all of human existence.

Do you attack Stalin?

Even if it means that it'll give Hitler the edge he needs to haul off tons of people from London and Leningrad to the death camps?

[StrangeDevice]

We will bear in mind that it was Kes originally who sensed a "malevolence", a "cold hatred" from this species and interpreted their advance as an invasion force. Coupled with that are the lines later on that "Your galaxy is impure, its proximity a threat to their genetic integrity," and "Your galaxy will be purged," which are both pretty unambiguous. Janeway warns them to stop their attacks or face retaliation, uses the weapon when they're assaulted, warns them off again once they've returned to normal space and then uses it again in self-defence.

Putting that aside though, the Stalin vs. Hitler example doesn't take into account that Voyager is not a power bloc. It's one ship, a crew of a couple hundred, alone in hostile space. No backup, no cavalry, nothing, and any commander worth their salt is going to go with the devil they know rather than the one they do not. Whether or not the Borg are a greater threat in such a war wouldn't be up for discussion in such a scenario, rather it's whether or not Voyager's crew have the edge on their ally if everything goes sideways. Drones can and have been disconnected from the Collective before, but whose to say that Species 8472 wouldn't develop a counterpoison to the nanoprobes or simply pull the ship into fluidic space and not let it out again. Their ability to create a singularity to return relied upon Borg technology.

I'd say her biggest mistake was with the Caretaker array. A simple, honest mistake where she put the lives of others against that of her crew, it was the trained and conditioned response of a Starfleet officer in the Alpha Quadrant and not a veteran of the Delta.

[Durandal_1707]

We will bear in mind that it was Kes originally who sensed a "malevolence", a "cold hatred" from this species

Seriously, if you were dealing with a horde of space zombies from another dimension trying to invade your home and assimilate you and your people, you'd be malevolent and hateful too.

and interpreted their advance as an invasion force.

Incorrectly.

Coupled with that are the lines later on that "Your galaxy is impure, its proximity a threat to their genetic integrity,"

The Borg are a bastardized version of life, polluted by tons of garbage that makes them space zombies, and thus "impure." Keeping in mind that the Borg are pretty much all 8472 know of our galaxy at this point, and also keeping in mind that Voyager has made pretty much the worst possible first impression at this point, appearing to be an ally of the Borg, and also keeping in mind that these messages are all filtered through Kes's rather vague senses of them, all this is really saying is that this galaxy is a threat to their genetic integrity because it's trying to turn them into Borg.

What else could it mean, that 8472 is worried that the humans will sleep with their daughters? I doubt they're genetically compatible...

and "Your galaxy will be purged," which are both pretty unambiguous.

Is it though? That could just be purged of the Borg. Keep in mind that the "Hope and Fear" guy's planet was aware of 8472, and was not afraid of them, but rather saw them as potential saviors against the Borg.

Janeway warns them to stop their attacks or face retaliation, uses the weapon when they're assaulted, warns them off again once they've returned to normal space and then uses it again in self-defence.

The main reason Voyager was attacked was because they'd made the worst possible first impression, seeming by all appearances to be allies of the Borg.

Putting that aside though, the Stalin vs. Hitler example doesn't take into account that Voyager is not a power bloc. It's one ship, a crew of a couple hundred, alone in hostile space. No backup, no cavalry, nothing, and any commander worth their salt is going to go with the devil they know rather than the one they do not. Whether or not the Borg are a greater threat in such a war wouldn't be up for discussion in such a scenario, rather it's whether or not Voyager's crew have the edge on their ally if everything goes sideways. Drones can and have been disconnected from the Collective before, but whose to say that Species 8472 wouldn't develop a counterpoison to the nanoprobes or simply pull the ship into fluidic space and not let it out again. Their ability to create a singularity to return relied upon Borg technology.

Okay, suppose you're one guy, on one side of Hitler's empire, and you need to get to the other end of it to get home. Hitler's fighting Stalin, and Stalin is, so far, winning. However, you possess a technological deus ex machina that can nullify the Red Army's advantage, causing Hitler to be able to overpower it. As a result, untold numbers of people living near the border zone will be hauled off to death camps. Would you give this deus ex machina to Hitler in exchange for passage through Nazi territory?

[StrangeDevice]

We will bear in mind that it was Kes originally who sensed a "malevolence", a "cold hatred" from this species

Seriously, if you were dealing with a horde of space zombies from another dimension trying to invade your home and assimilate you and your people, you'd be malevolent and hateful too.

and interpreted their advance as an invasion force.

Incorrectly.

Which would be down to Kes, right?

Coupled with that are the lines later on that "Your galaxy is impure, its proximity a threat to their genetic integrity,"

The Borg are a bastardized version of life, polluted by tons of garbage that makes them space zombies, and thus "impure." Keeping in mind that the Borg are pretty much all 8472 know of our galaxy at this point, and also keeping in mind that Voyager has made pretty much the worst possible first impression at this point, appearing to be an ally of the Borg, and also keeping in mind that these messages are all filtered through Kes's rather vague senses of them, all this is really saying is that this galaxy is a threat to their genetic integrity because it's trying to turn them into Borg.

What else could it mean, that 8472 is worried that the humans will sleep with their daughters? I doubt they're genetically compatible...

Or they have daughters. Species 8472 bear an uncanny resemblance to the Krikketeers from Life, the Universe and Everything. It raises an interesting question, rather than being a species that takes one look at our universe and decides "Well, it'll have to go," maybe they perceive it as being rampantly overpopulated. Actually, there's a thought... Their ideology would be so different that the Borg, Janeway and any other form of life would be seen as an extension of one vast organism because that's what fluidic space is. This unnamed species basically exist as antibodies to prevent "parasites" from damaging that dimension's ecology.

and "Your galaxy will be purged," which are both pretty unambiguous.

Is it though? That could just be purged of the Borg. Keep in mind that the "Hope and Fear" guy's planet was aware of 8472, and was not afraid of them, but rather saw them as potential saviors against the Borg.

Assuming that they interpret every organism as individually distinct, why not say "purged of the Borg"?

Which points out something interesting, the Borg are likely not the only thing that 8472 are aware of because Arturis's species knew of them. After all, what race of linguists wouldn't have a couple telepaths in its midst? Why wouldn't these people try to communicate with Species 8472 and try to give them a leg up in their conflict?

Janeway warns them to stop their attacks or face retaliation, uses the weapon when they're assaulted, warns them off again once they've returned to normal space and then uses it again in self-defence.

The main reason Voyager was attacked was because they'd made the worst possible first impression, seeming by all appearances to be allies of the Borg.

By sending a standard hail and beaming aboard a dead cube like pirates?

Okay, suppose you're one guy, on one side of Hitler's empire, and you need to get to the other end of it to get home. Hitler's fighting Stalin, and Stalin is, so far, winning. However, you possess a technological deus ex machina that can nullify the Red Army's advantage, causing Hitler to be able to overpower it. As a result, untold numbers of people living near the border zone will be hauled off to death camps. Would you give this deus ex machina to Hitler in exchange for passage through Nazi territory?

There's a horrible choice. Well... Assuming that I'm neither part of the Nazi regime, nor a Stalinist and this superweapon is radiological, I'd say... No. No, if it was just me, I would-- Gosh, what would I do with a weapon like that on my own? No idea. However, if I had a squad beneath me than I'd have to at least consider the idea. They're my people, after three years I'd hope they'd be my friends. I owe it to them to get them home. After two or three days without sleep like Janeway, I might even think that it's a good idea. That's the thing about war, we always cheat ourselves by believing that there are good guys when the reality is that each side is just as filthy as the other. It's not a decision I'd ever want to make.

[ScreamingDoom]

Not sure I feel up to rehashing the Caretaker argument again, but I think you can make a pretty good Prime Directive defence for Janeway's actions there, and it did probably help the Ocampa at least a little.

How so? I don't see how the Prime Directive could possibly be used to justify this action. It could be used to condemn it.

The Prime Directive basically has two occasions on which it is invoked:

1) Interference with a pre-warp culture, even unknowingly to said culture.

2) Interference in the internal affairs of another culture, unless specifically invited.

The first doesn't seem to apply as the crew was forced to interact with the Ocampa. So they've already interfered, which makes #1 rather moot. Even if it isn't though, the fact remains that Janeway took action rather than letting nature take its course and having the Kazon conquer the Ocampa.

The second is actually argument against Janeway's actions. By destroying the array, she prevented the Kazon from taking it and conquering the Ocampa. That's a pretty big interference in internal affairs. The Ocampa never asked for official assistance, and the Kazon specifically said to stay the hell out of the way.

Yeah, the Kazon would've been brutal thugs to the Ocampa, but so what? Janeway (and the Prime Directive) is quite willing and even enthusiastic to follow the letter of the law when it means the complete destruction of a society (sometimes even entire species!) before and after this, so what makes the Ocampa so special? What, because they were pretty and nice? So the Prime Directive Screw You Bastards Directive only applies to the ugly and mean? Does that mean Janeway decided to let those people on the Soccer Planet live with the near-certain threat of global devastation because she didn't like the way their stupid clothes cupped her chest?

If you have a dogmatic, ideological dictate, then you must follow it even to the detriment of logic, reason, or sanity.

Far from her worst action, even if the rational she gave in the show was not very effective.

Everything from that point follows from that one decision, so there is a good argument to be made that it is her biggest mistake.

[TrueMetis]

Thomas Riker shows why the Tuvix thing what such a terrible mistake. Still wasn't her worst mistake, that would either be stranding her crew in the Delta quadrant or making the choice to pursue a command position instead of sticking to science.

Not sure I feel up to rehashing the Caretaker argument again, but I think you can make a pretty good Prime Directive defence for Janeway's actions there, and it did probably help the Ocampa at least a little. Far from her worst action, even if the rational she gave in the show was not very effective.

As to command... I think that Janeway was meant to be a good commander in the show- the writing was just uneven. But if we take her as portrayed in canon... yeah, maybe.

Well until their hamster cage stops working because their source of energy was gone. The Ocampa were fucked, so a justification based on helping them is crap unless you're also planning on staying to keep them alive like cosmic goldfish.

Thomas Riker shows why the Tuvix thing what such a terrible mistake

how so?

If a transporter can create two of the same person than it should be able to separate Tuvok and Nellix and keep Tuvix. Simply recreate the accident and you should have Tuvix stay where he is while Tuvok and Nellix come out on the other side.