VOY - Retrospect

[9ansean]

I'm curious about how Latent Image serves to echo this one later in season 5. It carries a few elements right over from this episode.

Actually Latent Image reminds me of another thing thing bothers me about this episode. Janeway won't remove The Doctor's subroutine at his request insisting that you're just going have to learn from this even if it difficult from someone's whose programed to save lives. Which is fine. Except in Latent Image she does delete his memories for more or less the same reason (guilt over the loss of life under this direction) without his permission! That feels like a form of mind rape. Given that Seven's is the only other member of the crew as dependent on machine parts as he is and the same combination of personal imperfection she couldn't predict and social demands she never asked for that led to this tragedy: it's no wonder in that later episode she asks Janeway if they day may where she might be treated in similar fashion.

In hindsight I realize that death at the party in Latent Image was supposed to have taken place before Retrospect so maybe Janeway had second thoughts about the EMH growing as a function person since then. However she does continue to delete his memories when he tries to solve the mystery and only faces up to him about the full story after her talk with Seven. I suppose it's something fitting than, that in the same episode she final asks Seven if being severed from the Collective was really worth it her.

[9ansean]

[There are a lot of good topics they could have touched on with this premise, but they left it vague enough that it becomes a lot of stories all at once, and not all of those are going to align with the less ambiguous ending, causing a potential dissonance. That's often a danger with allegory: finding just the right balance of details.]
[/quote]

I think that's very true. If you're trying to send a message, if your would to make the case for or against something, it probably not a good idea to point the emphasis on the unknown so much as how is effected by it.

What's funny is that Bryan Fuller also wrote Living History which was quite possibly my favorite Voyager episode and it relied highly on the same concept. What is the fact of the past aren't what we remember? The difference is that a) it involved cultural records not individual recall and more importantly b) it was very nuanced. It didn't make either side look totally right or all wrong. I'm not saying there can't be compelling allegories with clear villains or that both sides always need to seem equally at fault, but at least it didn't seem like x and y had to stand anyone one conflict in particular.

[Trooper924]

I wonder if the message of the episode would've been less muddied if Seven's false recollection wasn't about something that happened to her. Like, instead she thought she saw Kovan doing something suspicious in his laboratory--which, thanks to the Doctor, got confabulated into something more unethical--only for it to turn out to be nothing. Just completely remove the allegorical sexual assault out of the equation.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I wonder if the message of the episode would've been less muddied if Seven's false recollection wasn't about something that happened to her. Like, instead she thought she saw Kovan doing something suspicious in his laboratory--which, thanks to the Doctor, got confabulated into something more unethical--only for it to turn out to be nothing. Just completely remove the allegorical sexual assault out of the equation.

Maybe, but I actually think that using dream theory was a pretty crafty touch. The doctor gets pretty ridiculous, but it's a pretty stirring premise.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I'm curious about how Latent Image serves to echo this one later in season 5. It carries a few elements right over from this episode.

Actually Latent Image reminds me of another thing thing bothers me about this episode. Janeway won't remove The Doctor's subroutine at his request insisting that you're just going have to learn from this even if it difficult from someone's whose programed to save lives. Which is fine. Except in Latent Image she does delete his memories for more or less the same reason (guilt over the loss of life under this direction) without his permission! That feels like a form of mind rape. Given that Seven's is the only other member of the crew as dependent on machine parts as he is and the same combination of personal imperfection she couldn't predict and social demands she never asked for that led to this tragedy: it's no wonder in that later episode she asks Janeway if they day may where she might be treated in similar fashion.

In hindsight I realize that death at the party in Latent Image was supposed to have taken place before Retrospect so maybe Janeway had second thoughts about the EMH growing as a function person since then. However she does continue to delete his memories when he tries to solve the mystery and only faces up to him about the full story after her talk with Seven. I suppose it's something fitting than, that in the same episode she final asks Seven if being severed from the Collective was really worth it her.

Hmm, not 100% on this. For starters, she's not really deleting his memories to free him of guilt per se. In Retrospect he's unsettled, and in teaching Seven to use her mistakes to learn, she extends that to the doctor, whom had the same condition pretty much. but in Latent Image he's breaking down. With Seven, the memories of a human being come off more as seed bearing fruit wombs, but with the EMH I can see it coming off more as vegetables more derivative of the plant. Complications get the better of things nonetheless.

That makes sense in the second paragraph though.

[Beastro]

The "not believing rape victims" charge - on the one hand, I can see why it gets people upset, as Chuck himself mentioned in the episode, but on the other hand, I've done that myself, when hearing their accounts and finding it wanting, when the woman or women in question are not behaving in a realistic manner, and so I wonder how accurate said accounts are. What does that make me?

Things like that are a black hole in that they can't help but draw people into, even if they're trying to avoid it.

I had a friend who was sexually assaulted at school, who in the months that followed, then began to bring up memories from being a toddler about being sexually assaulted by her step-father. It didn't just happen to her, it happened to her brother at the same time. When he started getting into in his teens, developed an obsession with her and tried to make a move on her (fortunately she fought back and kneed hard). They both got help, but that fact nicely cleared up any ambiguity as to if her memories were real or not.

It doesn't end there, sadly. In the aftermath of the school-assault mutual friends came forward claiming their own unrelated assaults. The first was detailed in it happening at a New York park during a family road trip followed by the next that was vague.

As it turned out, both were lies. The first one was jealous of what she saw as the our friend getting "special" attention from being assaulted. She wasn't treated nicely at home, used to take care of her other siblings and ignored by her parents unless she wasn't doing their job for her, so I see where that was from, but it was just one of many vile lies that began to seep out of her.

Then there was the other friend. She simply didn't want to be left out as the non-assaulted one of the trio. I didn't find that out, nor of the first ones lies until after she cut me off and I ran into the other friend who felt I needed to know given that, she too had been dropped by her callously.

The end moral for me is value the trust of a claim as sacred. That the other lied doesn't make me more suspicious of such claims per say, but it certain does boil my blood all the more when the false claims are found out, as those people do more harm to real victims second only to perps themselves.

But back to the original bit, it's left me ambiguous about something like repressed memories. I'm still highly suspicious, but I do know now that they can exist. I think what's important, though, is that it's the victim who comes out and lays out the memories of their own accord rather than having any professional try to take an active role. As I learned helping her through it, the thing was just being there to calm her down as thing came to her, keeping my mouth shut beyond that and just letting it come out.

[9ansean]

I've gone back and forth about adding this for a long time, since I'd already written quite a bit one this topic. However after watching the Inquisition review I think it's fair to say that Chuck covered the controversy over that episode far more thoroughly than his review of this one.

So here http://www.womenatwarp.com/episode-104-retrospect/ is a very good discussion with links to several related articles that originally extended on many of the same points of made (or tried to make). It should provide a better understanding of why so many find this episode so regressive and troubling.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

So here http://www.womenatwarp.com/episode-104-retrospect/ is a very good discussion with links to several related articles that originally extended on many of the same points of made (or tried to make). It should provide a better understanding of what someone many like myself find this episode so regressive and troubling.

Key points for consideration?

[9ansean]

So here http://www.womenatwarp.com/episode-104-retrospect/ is a very good discussion with links to several related articles that originally extended on many of the same points of made (or tried to make). It should provide a better understanding of what someone many like myself find this episode so regressive and troubling.

Key points for consideration?

I've only listen to the podcast once and can't remember exactly the key points I'd take away were phrased. One thing does stand out (that I hadn't fully realized) how the episode bends over backwards to say we should sympathize with Kovin even though he comes his behavior towards Seven comes off as skeevy well before he's accused of anything. That and the Doctor's initial suggestion that she should just take it with good humor. This really reinforces an all to common message send to women facing harassment: that you're supposed to act nice even to those who cross the line of your comfort zone.

Something in the accompanying review from M0vie blog (which I'd recommend reading in it's entirety was similar actually tapped into my biggest problem with the overall framing of this story. Something also described in the podcast.

"...Seven of Nine is initially nonplussed by what might have happened with Kovin. She is willing to move past any “resentment” of her attacker, which seems an unreasonably magnanimous response to expect from the victim of a brutal assault. However, problems only begin when the EMH starts pushing Seven to embrace her trauma and her sense of victimhood. “Kovin attacked you, violated your rights as an individual,” he insists. “It’s important that you recognise that, so you can understand any hostility or resentment you might be feeling.”

Retrospect seems to suggest that even righteous anger in response to a gross violation of bodily autonomy is toxic and should be avoided. “He violated that individuality,” the EMH assures Seven. “What he did is an affront to everything you are, Borg and Human.” This sense of victimhood leads to the persecution of Kovin, suggesting that Seven of Nine is not entitled to feel angry about an assault upon her person. Given that so much of Voyager is about Seven reclaiming and her individuality, this idea seems counter-intuitive.

In some ways, it plays into the political right’s fixation on “victim culture.” While the criticism might have some merit applied to the most extreme cases, it certainly seems like a rather strong accusation to throw at a character who has been grossly assaulted in the past. There is also no small irony in the fact that the political right has a tendency to engage in its own “victim culture” in response to criticisms of its rhetoric and policies."

[9ansean]

Some other points to take away now that I've reheard the podcast:

No asks Seven's consent about trying to reenact the reported assault on her arm!

Despite Janeway telling the Doctor and the end that "we all make mistakes" no one tries to comfort Seven about her mistake even though it was not a mistake in the first place. If anything her last scene with him suggest he thinks she should feel regret about what HE did wrong.

The bring up the Brett Kavenugh hearing and while I've tried to avoid getting too political, I though about this episode during those hearing as well. Mainly because both relayed on the defense rhetoric (to quote the m0vieblog again) "...that accusing somebody of sexual assault is somehow more egregious than committing a sexual assault. In some ways, it is a more extreme version of the rhetorical trick that treats accusations of racism as somehow more offensive than racism itself."

I've already quoted a lot from this reviewer Darren, but there is one more thing I'd like to paraphrase since a better illustrates something I tried to explain in my earlier post about what we are SUPPOSED to believe was a grave injustice.

"When Tuvok assures Kovin that a representative of his people will arrive shortly, Kovin scoffs. “He won’t help me,”... Even being accused of violating them is a serious offence.” To even consider pressing charges is to brand the accused as a criminal.

This is a ridiculous justice system, even by the standards of the franchise that produced Justice. It seems the reasonable thing to do would be to ask Kovin to submit to a preliminary investigation by Voyager without involving his authorities, but nobody suggests this. Instead, Kovin laments his poor status as a man accused of violating an assault victim.
...

Watching the episode, it is hard to determine what exactly Janeway does wrong. A complaint is brought to the attention of the crew, and an investigation is launched. Over the course of a thorough and impartial investigation into the complaint, Kovin is exonerated. It seems like the whole affair lasts a few days at most. The EMH might become a little over-invested in the investigation, but it is not as though Voyager becomes a draconian nightmare?

What is the take away from Retrospect? That Janeway should have told Seven not to press charges? That Tuvok should have spent more time interrogating Seven rather than investigating the charges on their own terms? That Voyager should not have involved Kovin at all, leaving him free to conduct his business and perhaps even flee the system? The EMH is overzealous, but Tuvok seems perfectly rational. The crazy laws of Kovin’s society, along with Kovin’s dramatic reaction, serve to spur the episode to a ridiculous and overwrought conclusion."