VOY - Retrospect

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

What is the take away from Retrospect?

Well you said it yourself, that the EMH was being a tool.

Frankly though I don't think the episode is saying that Seven was wrong to act out in anger. That reads into the events a bit much, and there's not supposed to be a silver lining to every pivotal detail. The whole point was that protocol was being followed earnestly in a situation with incomplete information, and it's contrived to the point where his own society overly deemed him guilty until proven innocent (if even). And go ahead and challenge me on this, but that is how sensational crowds, left or right, are known to treat things. It's arguable how much that applies to rape circumstances I must say, but to the point of this day and age where viral media influences administrative action, that's not really out of left field or anything.

I remember rewatching the episode when the review came about, and I think I remember, again, mostly tracking all of this to the EMH. I think maybe Janeway might have done something wrong, but the doctor is always considered the specialist in this episode. One of my posts here I believe talks about Tuvok, so I'll look at what I said about that.

It's a misguided episode for the worst, but I don't think the devil's necessarily in the details. I don't remember Janeway giving Seven a scolding look, and I don't think the EMH was trying to push shame on Seven.

[9ansean]

What is the take away from Retrospect?

The whole point was that protocol was being followed earnestly in a situation with incomplete information, and it's contrived to the point where his own society overly deemed him guilty until proven innocent (if even). And go ahead and challenge me on this, but that is how sensational crowds, left or right, are known to treat things. It's arguable how much that applies to rape circumstances I must say, but to the point of this day and age where viral media influences administrative action, that's not really out of left field or anything.

Influence it not the same thing as set policy. Sensational crowds might act this way, but Kovin claims the on his world treats even accusation by those the trade with as a criminal offense. Like I've said that is an absurd system that has no real world parallel that I can imagine. (In Living History, Fuller convincingly differentiated prejudiced legal proceeding with opposing side mob violence) Even if universe this doesn't make sense. As someone pointed out on Fanfare
"Kovin engages in barter with random aliens. The odds of nobody ever even accusing a trader of wrongdoing on the basis of simple cultural misunderstanding is absolutely zero, especially given Kovin's attitude. His actions probably would've gotten him stabbed on a Klingon ship.
The plot point is idiotic in the context of five seconds of real worldbuilding - these guys would clearly have some kind of formal arbitration process to protect both their own people and the strangers they needed to do business with, especially since they're literally selling WMDs there."

[9ansean]

What is the take away from Retrospect?

It's a misguided episode for the worst, but I don't think the devil's necessarily in the details. I don't remember Janeway giving Seven a scolding look, and I don't think the EMH was trying to push shame on Seven.

Well I've seen the screenshot on another website of the look she gives and while I wouldn't exactly call it scolding, it was very accusatory. Though EMH didn't quite push shame on Seven, he didn't assure her what happened was not her fault (I simple can't press this enough) and that he was the one put the wrong notions in her head. Instead as Chuck pointed it's more about how he can't leave with being an unfit psychiatrist and medical investigator. To quote someone in the podcast (which incidentally I hope you listen to if you haven't already) "Dude don't make this all about you!"

[9ansean]

What is the take away from Retrospect?

It's a misguided episode for the worst, but I don't think the devil's necessarily in the details. I don't remember Janeway giving Seven a scolding look, and I don't think the EMH was trying to push shame on Seven.

Well I've seen the screenshot on another website of the look she gives and while I wouldn't exactly call it scolding, it was very accusatory. Though EMH didn't quite push shame on Seven, he didn't assure her what happened was not her fault (I simple can't press this enough) and that he was the one put the wrong notions in her head. Instead as Chuck pointed it's more about how he can't leave with being an unfit psychiatrist and medical investigator. To quote someone in the podcast (which incidentally I hope you listen to if you haven't already) "Dude don't make this all about you!"

[9ansean]

The EMH was not wrong about one thing, that violating the individual is an affront to everything an individual is. Yet Seven is depicted as far more nonchalant than you expect someone who'd experience a brutal assault (even an artificial implemented one) would be until he explains this. We'd seen Seven capable of anger before going all the way back to The Gift. Yet her sense of victimhood is not only presented as unfamiliar here, but also what leads to Kovin's needless prosecution. Given so much of the series has been about reclaiming individuality this seems counterintuitive.

However it might be interpreted that what really changes her outlook for the worse is EMH insisting that Kovin's punishment is inevitable and will surely make you feel better. In the real world, the evidence would not have been enough to convict Kovin of any crime under most systems. I can't speak for rape victims because I've never been one and I don't believe that anyone person has can properly speak for everyone else, but I think Michelle Erica Greene in her devastating response to Retrospect is probably close to the mark when she writes "...every victim knows that there’s no punishment or revenge that completely diminishes the sense of violation that can cause post-traumatic stress disorder for years afterward."

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

What is the take away from Retrospect?

The whole point was that protocol was being followed earnestly in a situation with incomplete information, and it's contrived to the point where his own society overly deemed him guilty until proven innocent (if even). And go ahead and challenge me on this, but that is how sensational crowds, left or right, are known to treat things. It's arguable how much that applies to rape circumstances I must say, but to the point of this day and age where viral media influences administrative action, that's not really out of left field or anything.

Influence it not the same thing as set policy. Sensational crowds might act this way, but Kovin claims the on his world treats even accusation by those the trade with as a criminal offense. Like I've said that is an absurd system that has no real world parallel that I can imagine. (In Living History, Fuller convincingly differentiated prejudiced legal proceeding with opposing side mob violence) Even if universe this doesn't make sense. As someone pointed out on Fanfare
"Kovin engages in barter with random aliens. The odds of nobody ever even accusing a trader of wrongdoing on the basis of simple cultural misunderstanding is absolutely zero, especially given Kovin's attitude. His actions probably would've gotten him stabbed on a Klingon ship.
The plot point is idiotic in the context of five seconds of real worldbuilding - these guys would clearly have some kind of formal arbitration process to protect both their own people and the strangers they needed to do business with, especially since they're literally selling WMDs there."

It's questionable the way the writers craft the allegory involving sexual assault, but it's not as perverse outside of that as you're making it to be. It's a society that has a sanctioned gun runner dealing with random unknown aliens; poking holes in their justice system is frivolous. It could very well be a Fascist gun liberated society in which people do get punished by false accusation.

What is the take away from Retrospect?

It's a misguided episode for the worst, but I don't think the devil's necessarily in the details. I don't remember Janeway giving Seven a scolding look, and I don't think the EMH was trying to push shame on Seven.

Well I've seen the screenshot on another website of the look she gives and while I wouldn't exactly call it scolding, it was very accusatory. Though EMH didn't quite push shame on Seven, he didn't assure her what happened was not her fault (I simple can't press this enough) and that he was the one put the wrong notions in her head. Instead as Chuck pointed it's more about how he can't leave with being an unfit psychiatrist and medical investigator. To quote someone in the podcast (which incidentally I hope you listen to if you haven't already) "Dude don't make this all about you!"

No. I have to firmly say that this doesn't come across as accusatory to me. I listened to the podcast which is why I brought it up, and I just watched the scene now as well. It's not like explicit, so how people see it is valid to an extent, but with consideration that's hardly the only way to read what happens. It was incredibly tragic the circumstances for which this man died, contemptible allegory or not, and that's really all that look embodies. Scorn without any explicit, formal, or reasonable circumstance would just be incredibly petulant.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

The EMH was not wrong about one thing, that violating the individual is an affront to everything an individual is. Yet Seven is depicted as far more nonchalant than you expect someone who'd experience a brutal assault (even an artificial implemented one) would be until he explains this. We'd seen Seven capable of anger before going all the way back to The Gift. Yet her sense of victimhood is not only presented as unfamiliar here, but also what leads to Kovin's needless prosecution. Given so much of the series has been about reclaiming individuality this seems counterintuitive.

However it might be interpreted that what really changes her outlook for the worse is EMH insisting that Kovin's punishment is inevitable and will surely make you feel better. In the real world, the evidence would not have been enough to convict Kovin of any crime under most systems. I can't speak for rape victims because I've never been one and I don't believe that anyone person has can properly speak for everyone else, but I think Michelle Erica Greene in her devastating response to Retrospect is probably close to the mark when she writes "...every victim knows that there’s no punishment or revenge that completely diminishes the sense of violation that can cause post-traumatic stress disorder for years afterward."

Having experienced anger before doesn't really affect things much here. It's the sense of individuality that Seven is unfamiliar with, not victimization. What's going on is the Doctor is telling her that what happened is an offensive violation done to her, as if it was done to the borg or something and not her as necessarily an individual.

The idea that worst harm the EMH did was falsely assuring her that the Kovin will be rightfully tried is kinda speculation and not really founded in the context of the teleplay.

[9ansean]

The EMH was not wrong about one thing, that violating the individual is an affront to everything an individual is. Yet Seven is depicted as far more nonchalant than you expect someone who'd experience a brutal assault (even an artificial implemented one) would be until he explains this. We'd seen Seven capable of anger before going all the way back to The Gift. Yet her sense of victimhood is not only presented as unfamiliar here, but also what leads to Kovin's needless prosecution. Given so much of the series has been about reclaiming individuality this seems counterintuitive.

However it might be interpreted that what really changes her outlook for the worse is EMH insisting that Kovin's punishment is inevitable and will surely make you feel better. In the real world, the evidence would not have been enough to convict Kovin of any crime under most systems. I can't speak for rape victims because I've never been one and I don't believe that anyone person has can properly speak for everyone else, but I think Michelle Erica Greene in her devastating response to Retrospect is probably close to the mark when she writes "...every victim knows that there’s no punishment or revenge that completely diminishes the sense of violation that can cause post-traumatic stress disorder for years afterward."

Having experienced anger before doesn't really affect things much here. It's the sense of individuality that Seven is unfamiliar with, not victimization. What's going on is the Doctor is telling her that what happened is an offensive violation done to her, as if it was done to the borg or something and not her as necessarily an individual.

The idea that worst harm the EMH did was falsely assuring her that the Kovin will be rightfully tried is kinda speculation and not really founded in the context of the teleplay.

Yes it's speculation as if your alternative theory of Fascist gunrunners. Really it's not to speculate about layers of meaning when this teleplay feels so unfocused. Something that can probably be blamed on the multiple written credits involved. Even Bryan Fuller admitted to being disappointed with the illusion resolution.

(Sigh) I've dance around this for maybe too long now. Partially because I don't want to seem beholden to believe in statistics (since I'm bad at remembering exact figures), but mainly because the internet as never since to challenge my confidence in presenting frank observation on sensitive issues. Since I'm also new to this site and frankly only been a real Star Trek fan for maybe five years now I've been trading cautiously.

So...promise to speak freely commander?

[9ansean]

The EMH was not wrong about one thing, that violating the individual is an affront to everything an individual is. Yet Seven is depicted as far more nonchalant than you expect someone who'd experience a brutal assault (even an artificial implemented one) would be until he explains this. We'd seen Seven capable of anger before going all the way back to The Gift. Yet her sense of victimhood is not only presented as unfamiliar here, but also what leads to Kovin's needless prosecution. Given so much of the series has been about reclaiming individuality this seems counterintuitive.

However it might be interpreted that what really changes her outlook for the worse is EMH insisting that Kovin's punishment is inevitable and will surely make you feel better. In the real world, the evidence would not have been enough to convict Kovin of any crime under most systems. I can't speak for rape victims because I've never been one and I don't believe that anyone person has can properly speak for everyone else, but I think Michelle Erica Greene in her devastating response to Retrospect is probably close to the mark when she writes "...every victim knows that there’s no punishment or revenge that completely diminishes the sense of violation that can cause post-traumatic stress disorder for years afterward."

Having experienced anger before doesn't really affect things much here. It's the sense of individuality that Seven is unfamiliar with, not victimization. What's going on is the Doctor is telling her that what happened is an offensive violation done to her, as if it was done to the borg or something and not her as necessarily an individual.

The idea that worst harm the EMH did was falsely assuring her that the Kovin will be rightfully tried is kinda speculation and not really founded in the context of the teleplay.

Yes it's speculation as if your alternative theory of Fascist gunrunners. Really it's not to speculate about layers of meaning when this teleplay feels so unfocused. Something that can probably be blamed on the multiple written credits involved. Even Bryan Fuller admitted to being disappointed with the illusion resolution.

(Sigh) I've dance around something for maybe too long now. Specifically how the episodes larger social implications. Partially because I don't want to seem beholden to believe in statistics (since I'm bad at remembering exact figures), but mainly because the internet as never since to challenge my confidence in presenting frank observation on sensitive issues. Since I'm also new to this site and frankly only been a real Star Trek fan for maybe five years now I've been trading cautiously.

So...permission to speak frankly captain?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

I think this is a good forum to speculate on sensitive issues.

The podcast you linked consists of three women that talk about how problematic the episode is, and it's understood what the intent was and how it looks bad not only especially now, but yeah it was probably even a bad idea back then.

So at the end, when all the women are talking about the look that Janeway gives her, it's true that people picking up on the episode might come across with what you and the gals were talking about, and that's relevant when dishing out on how well concept works for better or worse. That's not at all what Janeway was doing though, and that itself isn't a matter of interpretation.

Which leads to judgement of it as just a story. By this point, you seemed to be making the case that this episode was strongly and probably intentionally establishing a victim-blaming narrative for everybody watching to catch up on. The episode isn't doing that though.