The Last Jedi vs. The Undiscovered Country (Spoilers Allowed))

[Winter]

This should be interesting. So based on the response I've gotten so far with the whole "Pandering moment" in TLJ, the response has been "I don't really see it that way and actually don't mind the bit" so it seems I'm in the minority on that one. Which is fine I'm okay with different opinions so let me instead ask another question, which is the long running Sci-fi debate of Star Wars vs. Star Trek The Last Jedi vs. The Undiscovered Country.

So why these two films specifically? Well it all comes down to a certain scene between the two which is Luke and Kirk's moment of weakness in their respective films. With Luke it's him contemplating killing Ben Solo, his nephew, in his sleep because he sensed Darkness Within him vs. Kirk's "Let them die." in regards to helping the Klingon's.

Now unlike TLJ TUC was Very well received by both fans and critics upon release with many to this day still considering it one of the best Trek films in the series, often finding itself in second place right under The Wrath of Khan. By contrast TLJ is still has a rather mixed reputation with some fans loving it while others hate it.

Yet both had the actors being overall uncomfortable with how their characters were being written, go watch Chuck's review for more details, but the most notable example of a actor truly disliking how his character was written is William Shatner strongly disliking Kirk's "Let them die." much like how Mark Hamill said how he disliked how Luke was being written in TLJ.

Now since then Hamill did change his opinion on how Luke was written in TLJ, several times in fact as he's kinda flipped flopped between defending it and disliking it so at this point who knows what the trust is. However, I don't think Shatner has ever come around to saying that he liked how Kirk was written in TUC. I think he said he liked the film as a send off but as of this moment I don't think he ever really liked how it was written.

However, the more important issue to take into account though is how fans have reacted to both moments which is to say that most fans I have talked to either like or LOVE Kirk's moment of weakness while fans are at best split on Luke's moment of weakness.

I think this all comes down to one thing which is all that happened that led to these respective moments in both series. If you ignore The Final Frontier, (and really why would anyone acknowledge TFF as canon) then Kirk's line in TUC perfectly fits his character as the last time he had any interactions with the Klongon's it was them murdering his son, almost getting his best friend killed... again... and got the Original Enterprise destroyed.

And he's been fighting them for most of his life so to him they are his greatest enemy, even more so then Khan so him saying, Let them die, perfectly fits his character as Spock has hit a Very deep wound that likely will never heal.

But Luke thinking about killing his nephew in his sleep because he Might turn evil and, as far as we seen (and no explanations given in tie-in material or future sequels will not be counted) Luke never even tried to swayed him from the Dark Side and just figured that Murder was the Best Solution.

Also take into account what both do after said moment of weakness, Kirk does what he is ordered and tries to be as diplomatic as possible and when it seems that they fired on the Klingon ship instead of getting ready to fight Kirk orders The Enterprise to surrender and personally goes on board the Klingon ship to try and help Gorgan.

By contrast, Luke just abounded everyone he knew and loved and went into self imposed exile and just let the galaxy die because "The Jedi Order Sucks", what?

The reason most fans were shocked that Luke really did just abound the galaxy to it's fate is because there was NOTHING in the Original Trilogy that fits with this path Luke has taken. Even after learning that his father was actually Darth Vader and that everything that he had been told was a lie, Luke STILL continued his training and did everything in his power to save Han. Luke, STILL tried to resolve the matter peacefully with Jabba inspire of the fact that he was basically been torturing Han this whole time. Luke STILL was willing to learn from Yoda and still listen to Obi-Wan even after they lied to him. And Luke was STILL willing to try and redeemed his father the moment he was able to confirm that yes, he was his father.

Luke giving up after one mistake and contemplating something Palpatine was implied to do back in Revenge of the Sith doesn't fit with the journey he has been on. It's like Dany suddenly killing civilians because Bells Make You Crazy. Or Lara leaving Sam without so much as saying a word because she "Has to do something alone" (with Jonah cause she needs someone to screw everything up after she gets everything under control) or Harry suddenly putting all his faith in a Prophecy after learning throughout his journey that Prophecy is a bunch of BS.

Kirk giving into his anger because of his distrust of the Klingon's, I can buy that as it fits his arc for the films. Luke thinking that he should just kill his own nephew because DARK SIIIDE, is, for me, forced and out of character.

But what do you think, are you okay with Luke's MOW like you are with Kirk's?

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

But Luke thinking about killing his nephew in his sleep because he Might turn evil and, as far as we seen (and no explanations given in tie-in material or future sequels will not be counted) Luke never even tried to swayed him from the Dark Side and just figured that Murder was the Best Solution.

He didn't think about it though. That's the essential point. I'm sure you could make a case for why these impulses aren't apart of his character, but even that's kinda hard for a 30 year sequel.

None of it had to do with consideration of the circumstance or anything, it was essentially him listening to the dark side of the force when he never should have. Though technically the dark side was calling Ben as well I think, so overall it was probably a pretty important thing for someone like Luke to know.

And that is consistent with his character. I know the inconsistency has more to do with him leaving everybody for a island getaway, but he's undoubtedly familiar with giving into the dark side of the force in the original trilogy.

[Draco Dracul]

It's basically a useless comparison, as Kirk didn't have his life's work immediately destroyed by his mistake.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Well I do like the comparison myself.

And, as is often the case, I'm in bizarro world having the respective opposite opinion between the two. Not that I hate what Kirk does in STVI, but it just feels more flat to me than Luke in TLJ.

[bronnt]

Here's the main problem with the comparison: Luke disappeared for thirty years, and all his character development happened off screen. If we were able to see the build-up, a series of adventures that led him to become the man he is by TLJ, it might convey a bit of continuity. Instead, when he's acting that way, he's like a complete stranger and might as well be a different character-there's nothing recognizable in him. And for a good story, you need to make sure the hero has enough consistency that he seems to be same character.

For Kirk, we've actually seen all the things happening on screen that lead up to what causes him to have his moment of weakness. He's had to see Spock die, and then Klingons killed his son after he finally reconnected with him, then blew up his old ship.

Also, Kirk still gets to be hero of his own movie. His moment of weakness doesn't stop him from saving the day. Luke's moment of weakness causes him to become a hermit and we have to see someone else trying to fix crap. Luke does fuck-all in his story, whereas Kirk proves that his moment of weakness was actually out of character as he fights to save the peace treaty by the end.

Again, if we'd been able to see Luke's character develop over time to where it reached that moment of darkness, perhaps it works. Instead, he's a complete stranger the audience can't connect with.

[Winter]

Again, if we'd been able to see Luke's character develop over time to where it reached that moment of darkness, perhaps it works. Instead, he's a complete stranger the audience can't connect with.

I agree and have said something similar before. In the Legend's continuity Luke actually flirted with the dark side a few times, either actually becoming or pretending to become a Sith and while I feel ALL were as forced as Luke's moment of Weakness in TLJ I do think they were better handled as we Saw/Read all the $#!t that led to these moments. He lost his wife, was tortured, lost friends and family often for rather stupid reasons, and was constantly tempted by the Dark Side to just give in. Again, I still don't like these moments as Luke's character would often change Drastically depending on who was writing him.

But with TLJ, as you said, all the stuff that led to this moment happened off-screen and is likely intended to be sold to us in TV series, comics or novels like Luke's wife who may or may not have been Mara Jade in this continuity.

One of the reasons that I like The Thrawn Trilogy so much is that it while a lot of things happened between Return of the Jedi and Heir to the Empire not a whole lot of it was really that important for the characters. Han and Leia are now married and expecting kids, Luke is teaching Leia in the ways of the Force though she is still mostly focused on politics and Lando has a new company after the events of ROTJ.

Really the most important events that happened off-screen are things like Thrawn building up his army and doing some low-key investigating in order to find the Katana Fleet and C'baoth and the New Republic has been rebuilding itself and taking out some no names Imperial Admirals. And most of this is pretty uneventful and doesn't really impact how any of the character arcs. Sure it would have been nice to see Han and Leia's wedding and to see Luke begin to train Leia but TTT isn't about that. It's about Han and Leia trying to protect their family from C'baoth and Thrawn, about Luke becoming the mentor, of sorts, to Mara and about Thrawn showing off just how awesome he is.

But seeing Luke lose faith in his nephew, him giving up on everything and everyone with a second thought and why he would go looking for the first Jedi Temple? These ARE things that we needed to see the series build up to, especially if you're going to watch all Three Trilogies in Chronological Order.

If you go from The Prequels to the Original Trilogy and from The Original Trilogy to the Thrawn Trilogy you don't get the sense that you've missed much between the three Trilogies as all of the major events and character moments are all taking place in These Trilogies. But if you go from TOT to The Disney Sequel Trilogy you DO miss out on a lot as we're now focusing on new characters, most of whom have almost no connection to the characters from TOT. And not only that but the characters from TOT have had a number of MASSIVE character moments that are, so far, never shown onscreen.

Luke's issues we've talked about, but there's also things like Han and Leia basically getting a divorce, The creation of the First Order and the Resistance, the creation of the New Republic, the Origins of Starkiller Base, Kylo Ren's fall to the Dark Side and the Origin of Snoke. With TTT you get the sense that not a whole lot happened between Trilogies with TDST you DID miss out on a lot of $#!t.

[BridgeConsoleMasher]

Complete stranger isn't really accurate at all imo. As if to say you can't really see Luke in the character. He has PTSD and we've never seen him like this, but it's not like I haven't seen people get old and crabby before and turn into different people.

[Mecha82]

I am in camp that thinks that way both Kirk is in TUC and way Luke is in TLJ fit they characters. If you think about it Kirk's son was killed by Klingon so his distrust towards them is justified while at first Luke was on quest to find lost knowledge of Jedi Order and then realize that he has failed as Jedi Master after trying to kill his nephew but stopping after he realized what he was going to do and having his Jedi Academy destroyed by Knights of Ren.

Of course with Luke it makes lot more sense if you think about it that he is no longer same man that he was back during Galactic Civil War when he as still young optimistic and that he does seem to suffer from PTSD. He is older, wiser and less impulsive than he was back then but in turn he has lost optimism that he once had after everything that happened between original trilogy and sequel trilogy. People change and not always to better.

Granted that those did take place in additional material meant to explain what happened during time skip instead of in movies like it should had been so that more people would know about those events and not just hardcore fans. Yes there are those that prefer OP godlike Luke from Legends but to me more human Luke is preferable to Luke being Gary Stu.

[ChiggyvonRichthofen]

The two are pretty different. I think only hardcore devotees to Roddenberry's utopian vision would really have a problem with Kirk's arc. Luke's arc, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere and runs counter to his development in Return of the Jedi.

Kirk has a long, negative history with the Klingons. Even back in TOS as he brokers peace treaties and is at times forced to get along with them, he never really trusts them. His son is brutally murdered, and that distrust grows into hate. You can understand why he would feel that way.

In Return of the Jedi, Luke has compassion on his fallen father and fights for the tiny spark of good in him. Defenders of TLJ will point out that he still displays an impetuous rage in that movie, but it was always with the motivation of protecting his family and friends. Then out of nowhere he turns on his own nephew because he senses evil in him? There's no set-up whatsoever for that.

With that said, that still isn't my real problem with Luke's arc. As you point out, Kirk acts professionally and morally despite his feelings, which is why he's still the hero that we can respect. His ultimate motives are still pure. Luke has his lapse and runs away and hides, abandoning his entire family to their fates. That's literally the polar opposite of Luke's character in the OT.

Nothing they did with Kirk came even close to that kind of character assassination. Just spitballing here, but maybe if he had considered killing Gorkon then exiled himself to Rura Penthe? Maybe if he had considered killing David because he thought he was collaborating to sell the Genesis Device to the Klingons? Maybe that would be comparable to Luke.

[Draco Dracul]

In Return of the Jedi, Luke has compassion on his fallen father and fights for the tiny spark of good in him. Defenders of TLJ will point out that he still displays an impetuous rage in that movie, but it was always with the motivation of protecting his family and friends. Then out of nowhere he turns on his own nephew because he senses evil in him? There's no set-up whatsoever for that.

In RotJ he acts on his rage and nearly murders his father. In the backstory for TLJ he has but a passing though about killing his nephew, in what way does that not show a growing restraint from RotJ to TLJ?